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The crowns of the Zodiac
- The crowns of the Zodiac
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RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
VViews > 11-01-2020, 04:13 PM
Thanks for the clarification Anton. I see where this is going now.
To reverse the old adage, sometimes a comment is worth a thousand pictures! -
RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Anton > 11-01-2020, 06:17 PM
(11-01-2020, 03:20 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One has to ask oneself, who was Charles IV now?
then comes the big aha.
Now you are back with Wenzel I and the daughter of Rudolf I.
In the game of VM, Meinhard II takes a key position.
After his death, all clues are together.
Crown, battlements, German text, and the possibility of all plants in one place. Apart from the drawing stem and other features. These add the finishing touches.
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Hi Aga Tentakulus,
Could you be more specific? Do you mean Wenceslaus IV (the predecessor of Rupert and the successor of Charles IV) or Wenceslaus I (the 10th century martyr whom the Bohemian crown, crafted in the reign of Charles IV, is named after)?
What about Rudolph and Meinhard? Those are 13th century persons. Do you recognize any story of theirs being depicted in the VMS?
My idea is that the VMS author had used the calendar to mark some dates for his amusement. When he initially made it, he marked the election day of the then ruling Rupert. The whole manuscript may have been long ready and long used by its author when Jobst got elected, and he marked that by adding the crown to the 1st of October. Shortly after that, Jobst died (they say his rival Sigismund poisoned him), and Sigismund entered into rule, which was marked again. The nymphs breasts, as once discussed by Nick Pelling, are also a later addition. I suggest that nymphs themselves, as such, are just impersonal markers of days. It is how they are depicted that matters, and that may mean altogether different things related to dates. From historical events to astrological considerations.
The question is why the supposed Jobst's crown differs from the two others, wuth the eminent cross. Jobst was never crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor (so was not Rupert), and Sigismund was crowned only in 1433. Maybe the Voynich scribe was of the Jobst's party and wanted to emphasize his significance? Or maybe he expected that he will be crowned soon and antedated what never happened? -
RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Aga Tentakulus > 11-01-2020, 07:04 PM
Anton, you're looking for a connection between the crown and the calendar. I do not.
I'm looking for the crown's connection to the origin of VM.
That involves giving the crown a meaning where the dovetail merlons are.
The crown alone does not have much meaning for me.
The question: Where does the crown have a meaning where there are also the crenellations, but is also written in German.
If all hints we see in the VM are correct, it becomes really interesting.
Example: What about the other headgear?
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RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
-JKP- > 11-01-2020, 07:38 PM
I don't think the nymphs surrounding the different zodiac figures are necessarily the same kind of thing. It's almost as though each might have a slightly different theme. Some might mark dates, some might mark people or events, some might mark more personal aspects of life. -
RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Anton > 11-01-2020, 08:04 PM
I think each one can do any of those, and even multiple things at a time. It's like you have a calendar sheet, and you can write anything you want upon it. You can write multiple things at once.
Regarding the crowns, I come to the conclusion, that it makes little sense to search for "the" crown. The almost contemporary example of Chronica Hungarorum shows that they were not able to reflect the crown properly even on the title page, let alone the individual portraits of the kings.
The Voynich crowns would most probably be just common template crowns, at lease those of Leo and Cancer. What needs explanation is why the Libra crown differs from that template.
Another point concerning the count. There are start markers in most of the circles, evidently serving for the text. They differ from 12 o'clock, usually being somewhere around 9 or 10 o'clock. If the nymphs are also to be counted starting from those markers (instead from 12 o'clock), that shifts my count in an unfavourable manner. -
RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Aga Tentakulus > 11-01-2020, 08:07 PM
To get back to the gravestone.
Actually it's 5 1/2 crowns and not just 1.
I don't know which crown symbolizes which countries.
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RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Anton > 11-01-2020, 08:29 PM
I think these should be judged by the respective coats of arms. For example, the one to the middle left is the Habsburg coat of arms, so must be the Habsburg crown. Compare with this one:
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Snake and Eagle is Milan/Sforza:
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RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Aga Tentakulus > 11-01-2020, 09:10 PM
Anton, you're right. It is also beautiful to see in the painting Frederick with the Queen, the Portuguese coat of arms.
Everything was so interwoven that one could say that Europe was one family problem. But the farmers had to deal with it. -
RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
-JKP- > 11-01-2020, 11:19 PM
This is Thai, and it's 19th century, so no direct relationship to the VMS. But I wanted to post it anyway because I thought it was interesting that when a leaf pattern is used for the triangles, as in this crown, it creates that bumpy-edge effect that we see on the VMS crown:
Engraving by E. Allouis, courtesy of the British Library (no shelfmark yet). -
RE: The crowns of the Zodiac
Anton > 12-01-2020, 12:34 AM
Developing the topic of the October crown, I would suggest that what we see there is close to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. No early examples are preserved, but later examples, tombstones and early paintings are there.
The contemporary possessor of the archducal hat was You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Here is the contemporary painting of the next Duke (literally, Archduke), Albrecht VI: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.