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The Arma Christi [General discussion]
- The Arma Christi [General discussion]
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RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Linda > 09-08-2019, 05:30 PM
Not sure where i stand on the arma christi ideas but thought i would mention what came to mind.
I note the pelican takes a stance which is similar to that of the creature on f80v, it is closer than any of the lambs i have seen. However the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. creature is clearly not a pelican. Could it be a combination reference? Ie it is the proverbial lamb's blood that is being compared to the pelican's, so put the lamb in that stance? It would work with R. Sales' interpretation of that particular sixth seal illustration and the blood flowing...if indeed these items are portrayed in the plants, it would not be such a stretch to combine concepts like this. For my own interpretation it would add political imagery, pitting empires against popes, regions against faiths, etc.
The other commonality i have noted is with Koen's idea of the lance being shown on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I had thought of this as depicting okra. The fruits seem similar to the nails, although there is only one, but it is sort of acting as the lance while being part of it as well. Also the fruits themselves when cut crosswise have a pentagonal shape and often (but not always) show five holes where the seeds are found, perhaps representing the five wounds caused by the nails and lance.
![[Image: OKRA_700.jpg]](https://www.atcoblueflamekitchen.com/How-To/Cooking-101/PublishingImages/OKRA_700.jpg)
If indeed arma christi items are portrayed in the plants, are they still also plants? What other connections are there?
The oak and ivy, or figs and grapes perhaps, remind me of wine, if that means anything. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 09-08-2019, 06:11 PM
Speaking of holes in parchment... this is not a hole in the parchment, but it is interesting that it is drawn in Trompe l'oeil style to give it depth (and a more feminine character). Trompe l'oeil is not especially common in Books of Hours:
Bod Lat Liturg f 2 -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 09-08-2019, 06:18 PM
Linda, when I was blogging about the mystery critter and Agnus Dei, I wanted to keep the door open to a number of interpretations for the lines under the lamb.
Some of the possibilities are
- blood (blood is often associated with these drawings, especially those that use the lamb as a metaphor for Christ),
- the idea of ascension, movement, loftiness, a higher perch in the celestial hierarchy,
- water (some of the Agnus Dei images have water flowing from the altar under the lamb),
- the dangly bits from the Book of the Seven Seals (artfully hidden).
- blood (blood is often associated with these drawings, especially those that use the lamb as a metaphor for Christ),
-
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
davidjackson > 09-08-2019, 06:22 PM
The pelican is an allegory for christ. It was reputed in the bestiaries to feed its children with blood, in the same fashion as Jesús did for us. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 09-08-2019, 06:29 PM
(09-08-2019, 05:30 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
If indeed arma christi items are portrayed in the plants, are they still also plants? What other connections are there?
..
I've been wondering this myself.
There is a certain subset of plants where I have a few tentative IDs but have never been completely certain or comfortable with them. A couple of them are in this group, particularly the one with the four big red fringy things. There are a couple of plants on the planet that look vaguely like that, and one grows in Europe, but I was hesitant to write it up because I wasn't sure.
So... I don't know. Maybe it is that plant but it has been altered to fit the metaphor to the point where it's not recognizable or maybe it's just meant to look like a plant to hide the underlying meaning. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Linda > 09-08-2019, 06:30 PM
The problem i had with the blood in the correlation with that particular lamb and f80v was that the sixth seal doesn't really deal with that, in all other representations the stuff that could seem like blood is actually stars falling, sometimes interpreted as meteors and/or volcanic eruption, which is why the kings and men hide in the mountains.
But if it is combo time, then those constraints are removed.
I also see in those lines the possibility of vegetation, but it is more particular to my own interpretations. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Linda > 09-08-2019, 06:40 PM
(09-08-2019, 06:22 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The pelican is an allegory for christ. It was reputed in the bestiaries to feed its children with blood, in the same fashion as Jesús did for us.
Yes, as is the lamb representative of the same, although without the feeding. That is why i was connecting the two, since i have not yet seen a lamb in that pose, but the pelican pierces its own breast, and ends up with head down and around with mouth near breast just as the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. creature is portrayed. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Koen G > 09-08-2019, 06:45 PM
(09-08-2019, 06:11 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Speaking of holes in parchment... this is not a hole in the parchment, but it is interesting that it is drawn in Trompe l'oeil style to give it depth (and a more feminine character)
It was precisely this image (I also included it in the blog) that got me researching these weird Holy Wound drawings, I needed to know what this was about. This one is by far the most bizarre one out there. All five wounds are placed on a decapitated torso, which itself sits in a larger (and presumably "true size") version of the side wound. Woundception. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
arca_libraria > 09-08-2019, 09:37 PM
Some more arma christi images. I'm still not sure where this is going, but maybe these will be helpful to some of you. I've tried to keep my searches as broad as possible, but one thing I have noticed is that so far most of the MSs with certain dates before c. 1450 are English/Dutch. My searches weren't comprehensive so I am sure there are more examples to find.
NJ, Princeton University Library, Taylor MS 17 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
CT, Beinecke Lib, Osborne fa24 (2 parts) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
CT, Beinecke Lib, MS 1187 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
CT, Beinecke Lib, Takamiya 56 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
CA, Huntingdon Lib MS 26054 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
CA, Huntingdon Lib, MS 142 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
London, Wellcome Lib, MS 632 (some images in a blogpost here) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Oxford, Bod Lib, Bodley Rolls 16 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Oxford, Bod Lib, Bodley Add. MS E 4® You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Oxford, Bod Lib, MS Douce 1 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Oxford, Bod Lib, MS Canon. Liturg. 201 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (miniature on f. 8r)
Oxford, Bod Lib, MS Douce 243, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (miniature, outer margin f. 42r)
Oxford, Bod Lib, MS Douce F. 4 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cambridge, UL, MS II.6.2 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (esp. f. 75v)
Oxford, Bod Lib, Arch. G e.35(1) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Oxford, Bod Lib, MS Douce 14 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (includes interesting plant helix decoration)
Oxford, Bod Lib, Rawl. Liturg. g. 6 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Cambridge, UL, MS Ff.6.8 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (see f. 91v)
Trogen, Kantonsbibliothek Appenzell Ausserrhoden CM MS 6 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (f. 191r)
Paris, Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal. MS 212 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (f. 9v) -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 09-08-2019, 10:02 PM
Sorry, Koen, I've looked at so many mandorla shapes in the last few weeks, I've already lost track of which ones you posted on your blog (I do remember some of them). Will check next time before posting.
![[Image: CearxBaUMAUsg7c?format=jpg&name=small]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CearxBaUMAUsg7c?format=jpg&name=small)