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The Arma Christi [General discussion]
- The Arma Christi [General discussion]
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RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 17-08-2019, 12:41 PM
Yes, I agree about this one and it's a very good observation.
Not only does it cross over to the side rather than the middle, it almost looks like it's going through the pole because of the way the painter interpreted the lines (the painter was often someone different from the person who drew it):
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RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 17-08-2019, 01:20 PM
Here's another thing that's interesting about this manuscript...
It has some pseudo-text, which is not unusual in itself, but the pseudo-text isn't quite what one would expect for the second quarter of the 14th century.
They have mixed Indic-Arabic numerals with Greek. This style of numerals was not in general use until the late 14th century. They only show up in a few scientific texts. In the 1320s the majority were still using Roman numerals.
Plus, they have been combined with the Greek letters almost as though the numbers and letters are the same (and these are not Greek numbers).
It's the most Voynich-like pseudo-text I have seen. Not necessarily in form (the letter-shapes are different—they are recognizably Greek), but the numeral-shapes 4 and 8 are the same as in the VMS. So the letters are different, but the concept is essentially the same, combine Greek-like shapes with Indic-Arabic numerals placed at the beginnings and/or ends of the tokens (just as the "4" shape is almost always at the beginning, and the "89" shape is almost always at the end in Voynichese). Note that it is "3o" in this example in the same position as the VMS has "4o":
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RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Koen G > 17-08-2019, 01:40 PM
And then there's the flails.. and the fact that some of the exemplars used for the VM seem to have originally come from France.
Initially I had misunderstood the description of the MS, I thought it was copied from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it is the other way around, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the original. The Arma Christi page has not been included in the copy.
MS BNF Fr. 574 became part of the collection of Jean de Berry, and on his death in 1416 would have moved with his daughter to Burgundy.
Edit: JKP I agree You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Monica Yokubinas > 18-08-2019, 04:59 PM
(17-08-2019, 01:40 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And then there's the flails.. and the fact that some of the exemplars used for the VM seem to have originally come from France.
Initially I had misunderstood the description of the MS, I thought it was copied from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but it is the other way around, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the original. The Arma Christi page has not been included in the copy.
MS BNF Fr. 574 became part of the collection of Jean de Berry, and on his death in 1416 would have moved with his daughter to Burgundy.
Edit: JKP I agree You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
These picture in the 1520's herbal book remind me of you Arma Christi theory, and thought you might be interested. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Linda > 18-08-2019, 07:03 PM
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RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Koen G > 18-08-2019, 07:44 PM
I guess I found the nails?
f90v1
Root is a feline brandishing its claws. In Germanic languages, nail/nagel... can mean both fingernails and metal spikes. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 18-08-2019, 11:33 PM
(18-08-2019, 07:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I guess I found the nails?
f90v1
Root is a feline brandishing its claws. In Germanic languages, nail/nagel... can mean both fingernails and metal spikes.
LOL!!! I was just looking at that one.
They do look like spikes and even though the plant looks a bit like real plants, the "spike" part of it always baffled me. The fact that there are four might not matter. if one knows the meaning, 3 or 4 would be a big shrug and 4 looks more like a plant. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 18-08-2019, 11:53 PM
Plague (and resulting famine) was very bad in the 14th century. Very bad.
I can see why talismanic symbology, especially talismans that protected you if they were carried (even if you couldn't read them), and which "blessed" you (in the sense of last rites) so you could go to heaven without intervention by a priest, would be REALLY popular.
Birthing talismans were probably always popular, not just in plague times. Giving birth was hazardous any time.
The Arma Christi was both. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
Koen G > 19-08-2019, 12:19 AM
True, those are facilitating factors. Few symbols would have been more recognizable and powerful.
Still, I think there must be more to it. The pillar + flails betray familiarity with the visual tradition, likely even with the manuscript tradition specifically. But a few times already we've seen the influence of textual sources (bible) that go beyond what was usually depicted.
Some plants seem just plants, others have some symbol in them. But I'm seeing more and more that are renditions of whole bible verses. -
RE: The Arma Christi [General discussion]
-JKP- > 19-08-2019, 05:40 AM
It would be difficult to hide "coded" plants (that look slightly off) unless there were also real plants mixed in.
An alternate way of thinking about it is that the idea was originally to drawn a collection of plants, but after looking at mnemonics, ideas come to mind (to someone with a fertile imagination) and it morphs into something more, something original.