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F82r as the Black Sea

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• F82r as the Black Sea

• F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 31-05-2019, 08:27 PM

  I am referring to the bottom half of the page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with regard to this dentification of the Black Sea.
  
  
  
  
  1375 Cresques Abraham, 1380 Guillem Soler, 1436 Andrea Biancho
  
  
  1489 Albino de Canepa, 16th century Ottoman, 21st century NASA
  
  I chose these because they best show the features i want to correlate with the vms imagery.
  
  Note that the Sea of Azov is not drawn on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. thus Crimea does not stand out, it is simply shoreline. It is also more to the east than truly situated. The northwest shore has been straightened and turned somewhat. This could be commentary, since so far i have not found a map with Crimea too far to the east, but there are many to be found too far to the west, even centuries after the carbon dating. 
  
  
  1656
  
  Actually there are two nymphs situated on or near Crimea, it is just skewed, what is southwest facing in reality is shown as pointing south in the vms drawing. Also, the blue port is part of the shape of the waterbody in the vms, although it appears as though it is not due to the colour change and the nymph herself, ie the nymph makes it seem like the lake ends to the left of her, rather than on the right.  However the nebuly line does continue around this feature. Therefore the Crimean peninsula is not drawn as far to the east as it may seem. This nebuly effect of the shore also hides some of the port /river imagery. It is somewhat reminiscent of the bubbly effect in some portolan maps of the Black Sea.
  
  Here are what i believe are the most likely identifications of each part of the vms drawing.
  
  The far left nymph is standing in a river port, it would be the Danube delta. The 'thing' is to show that there is another way to get here, and points the way she came, via the Danube, but we got here via the route through the Sea of Marmora. Notably, the nymph i identify as Genoa on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. holds one too. 
  
  The next feature clockwise is a mountain river with another joining it at an angle. This corresponds to the Dniester. You can see the double forks of the 1489 version, and a 'Y' on the 1436 version where the straight part does indeed show to come from a mountain. The 16th century version also shows the mountain connection. The satellite version is actually the closest match, i think. The river rises in the Carpathian mountains.
  
  The nymph to the right of this stands in a river port, and this would be the Dnieper river, shown as a delta in all the nautical charts.
  
  The next nymph is located on the southern shore of Crimea, likely in the area of Genoese colonization, denoted by the Genoese flags on the nautical charts.
  
  
  
  It is also mountanous there. I think i am starting to understand the nymphs more. They are the Earth. In particular they are newer earth. Mountains which have formed, rivers flowing down bring silt and create deltas, forming new land where there used to be just water, etc.. That is why they are drawn as pregnant, they all are in the process of giving birth to new earth, whether through uplift, erosion, or perhaps it is the formation of cities which is referenced. 
  
  Next is the Cimmerian Bosphorus, or Kerch Strait, in the form of a spray which then drips down. This would be the connection to the Sea of Azov, if it were drawn here. The spray motif seems a bit like the spray coming from  the facing page imagery of f81v, which i think is depicting the Sea of Azov, except it is backwards in its presentation, both preceding the Black Sea page and presented in mirror image. I think this has to do with staying in Europe for this part of the tour., but coming back to it to continue the tour of Asia. Perhaps this may be seen as my attempting to fit the imagery to my story, but a) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. looks a lot like the sea of Azov, especially in a low water state, the number of nymphs basically works with the number of points on the shore.  b) there is nothing between the Sea of Marmora and the Black Sea which it could be instead, c) The Sea of Azov would otherwise be missing. So i am going with either obfuscation or poetic licence as explanation for the imagery being out of order. It is sometimes thought of as being part of the Black Sea, and due to its northern situation, both seas were often drawn upside down on maps, so that may also have to do with the ordering, although it does not follow the flow of water per se. The Sea of Azov was thought by early geographers to be as big as the Black Sea, which may explain why it is drawn so large as well.
  
  
  
  Next, at the far right,  is the Rioni River, or as the ancient Greeks called it, the Phasis river. Again it is hard to know what time period we are talking about, but Herodotus thought it to be the deliniation between Europe and Asia.  The river rises in the Caucasus mountains.
  
  On the left again, at the bottom, we have a nymph representing Thracia or Constantinople, depending on the time period. She is pointing at a larger nymph's abdomen. She points similarly to the nymph in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where i took it to mean the people of those places could see each other. I think this is analogous to being able to see Bithynia's highest point from 70 km away in Istanbul. 
  
  This again leads me to liken the bellies to mountains. And the outstretched foot, perhaps that is sea level, and why so many nymphs seem buried or submerged, although i had a thought that may indicate time, ie how long the area has been populated.
  
  I think the next two nymphs stand for Amasra and its great island, given one label, and the fact that i have lately interpreted bodiless nymphs as islands, or she could represent Heraclea Pontica., and together they stand for Paphlagonia. Amasra at one point became part of the Kingdom of Trebizond, then fell under the rule of the Republic of Genoa, until the Ottoman takeover. It is also interesting that the original Paphlagonians are thought to have left the area with some Trojan survivors to populate Venetia. Perhaps some of this explains the ring/mirror and/or crown. 
  
  I think the next three cover the region of Pontus denoting perhaps Sinope,  which is situated at the bump in the middle, 
  Ordu, and Trabzond. Again there is a Genoan connection.
  
  
  
  I think the top of the page relates to taking either the Dniester, Dnieper or the Don river up to the Bay of Finland, through the Baltic to the North Sea, following the shore of Europe back down to Lisbon, where the nymph sleeps, perhaps this is home, or home away from home. There were various nationalities of cartographers living in Lisbon at the time of the vms carbon dating. 
  
  I found the 1489 map interesting as the upside down tents are very reminiscent of the embellishments in the river shown at the top of the vms page. I think the embellishments stand for mountains. In the Genoese map of 1457, it shows the Dniester river as the one going to the Baltic, past mountains. The Fra Mauro map of about the same time period shows the same, in a  different but direct route from the Dniester, past mountains although alternate routes are also shown involving any of the three rivers i have mentioned. 
  
  These maps of Genoese and Venetian routes also shows it to be the Dniester, and is proof of concept insofar as such travelling had been accomplished. However it requires an understanding of the Hanseatic league routes. Perhaps such info was gained through sharing of knowledge at the Council of Constance. The last image in this set shows the origins of the Council attendees.
  
  
  
  The page opposite this one, f82v, shows again European areas we had seen before in the tour, including the Spanish shoreline and the Alps. I believe the page meant to follow that one is f75r, being the Caspian Sea, which starts the Asia and Africa part of the tour. 
  
  In terms of the complete tour, my suggested page order is 76, 80, 84, 77, 78, 81, 82, 75, 79, 83
  
  Let me know what you think about these correlations. There may be mythologies involved, many of these places were named in the Iliad and other works as well.

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 01-06-2019, 09:10 PM

  
  
  Ptolemy style maps have the same northwest straightening going on. The two bumps are the same two bumps in the vms rendering.

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Monica Yokubinas > 03-06-2019, 06:21 PM

  Quite an interesting comparison of the water shapes in the VMS and the water ways in Europe and Asia.

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 03-06-2019, 08:42 PM

  (03-06-2019, 06:21 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quite an interesting comparison of the water shapes in the VMS and the water ways in Europe and Asia.

  
  Thank you, Monica  
  
  Ptolemy style maps became popular in the later 15th century, but they were rediscovered and started to be translated into Latin in 1406 in Florence, i believe, so that does fall into the timeline for those in the business, if not for the public at large. 
  
  
  It seems to me that many of the vms waterbodies seem better drawn than most maps to that point in time, especially the Caspian Sea, of which the vms version seems to me the best drawing until the 18th century, and as you can see the Ptolemy version looks nothing like it, nor does the Ptolemy Sea of Azov, even if it is backwards in the vms.
  
  Not only this, but every sea, including various smaller seas and gulfs that make up the Mediterranean, and many of the largest lakes and rivers are also covered, with none missing except perhaps the Baltic, insofar as an actual waterbody being drawn for it, although i think it does get a nymph assigned to it, on the upper part of f82r. I think there is still some obfuscation going on re sizing, direction, and placement, but for the most part i find there are too many specific correlations for it not to be considered a possibility that quire 13 is about the waterways of the world.

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 04-06-2019, 01:16 PM

  
  
  13th century  Tabula Peutingeriana

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 05-10-2019, 08:16 AM

  I just noticed something about the nymph i think of as Genoa/Ligurian sea, at the top of page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that is helping me see it better.
  
  
  
  If you make a straight line across just north of Corsica from just below Cannes where the sea last touches the shore, the resulting shape, including the green water in the container the nymph is standing in, fits the shoreline. The container part is to the south past the alps which happens to be the current border of Italy. Note the second pic above, see how the left line of the container follows the shape of the French shore, to the mouth of the Rhone. It includes the green water part. The outer edge of the container is to hide the info in plain sight by drawing another line to turn this into a container rather than show the shoreline drawn out. Whereas i had thought green to mean salt water, and perhaps it does indicate higher salinity to the south, but here there seems to be a political boundary indication as well. In fact the area in question, burgundy, or perhaps the county of geneva, had recently been dissolved (1401 for the latter).
  
  I saw the shape because i was looking at a black and white pic of f82v, where the green and blue looked the same, and the shape is more apparent.. Note that the other nymph in the pic can be thought of as Corsica, and that Genoa controlled Corsica at the time. (Main export was bad tempered slaves, i think that could be why the red face and the marching stance.)
  
  The Genoa nymph holds the Rhone, including the haut Rhone with its curve, in her right hand (her hand would be the location of Lake Geneva). The direction is a tiny bit off, should be more of a bend just before the curve. 
  
  
  
  The other item in the left hand points to Genoa's location on the Ligurian coast. It seems to gather up the area of Lombardy, which extends from approximately Lake Maggiore to Lake Garda. 1421 to 1435 Genoa was under the rule of the Visconti of Milan, which is located centrally in the area described.
  
  
  
  Maybe she is a mnemonic for Geneva/Genova. 
  
  The rainbow and rock behind her i thought of as the Po valley and the Alps. Not quite sure why they are askew to the left, they seem to start at Genoa, instead of Genoa being central to the curve as it is in reality. Maybe it is also to help remember the closer Appennine Mountains, and the river system is the Arno and Tiber. They make more of a curve than the Po in actuality. Ah yes, i think now it is to show that the Arno empties into the Ligurian sea, hence the lines of flow into the blue area in the drawing
  
  
  
  Another thing that struck me was that the Republic of Genoa included many areas highlighted in the quire. The sphere of influence  was quite far reaching and perhaps this is what this mnemonic suggests. Especially in northern italy, you can almost see the nymph and her spread out arms in the areas highlighted. The Rhone valley figures prominently as well.
  
  
  
  I had earlier thought that the red colouring had to do with hot springs near where the eastern Ligurian border was deemed to exist, but it turns out there are hot springs near Lake Geneva as well, perhaps it is meant to denote both.
  
  The red of the river valley, as well as the yellow (sulphur) also proves to be appropriate, there are various hot springs in the Tuscany and Lazio regions
  
  

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 29-06-2020, 06:39 AM

  Just relooking at the nymph on the right hand side standing in blue water, someone recently asked why she would be in blue water and not green like the rest. The green water indicates mineralization, in this case salt. Compare with a current satellite photo, it is sort of reverse coloured, you can see the green area to the far right that corresponds with her location. 
  
  
  
  In my interpretation, she is on the east side of the Black Sea, so would likely represent Colchis, an ancient Kingdom known for the golden fleece.
  
  Why would she be in blue water? Because it is fresh water from the river, and lake that used to be there. The lake was mentioned by Strabo. Note the tube she has her hand on, this signifies a navigable river, this would be the Phasis or modern Rioni. The fact that it is vertical means it rises, likely flooding the area at times. The whole area is a valley that would have a lot of runoff from the surrounding Caucasus mountains. The valley fits in the blue area where the nymph stands.
  
  What's more is that the nymph herself might have a name, and that is Asia. The Phasis river was considered a boundary between Europe and Asia by many ancient geographers. However Asia was also the name of an Oceanid, her father was Oceanus, whose parents were Uranus (the sky) and Gaia (the earth), and was father to all the rivers and seas. Oceanus was thought to be the encircling sea of old maps, but also thought of as the Black Sea by the ancient Greeks. Asia's son or husband (accounts vary) Prometheus was said to be the one who gave fire to early humans (and was punished for it). His son was Deucalion who married Pyrrha, they repopulated the earth after the flood.  Again we have origin and flood concepts that tie in with the area shown, and again a notable water-carved geographic anomaly (the example i am thinking of is the fish nymph relation to geography near the Red Sea on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
  
  

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  R. Sale > 30-06-2020, 12:40 AM

  A couple thoughts.
  
  When the Burgundian navy entered the Black Sea in 1445, it split in two. De Thoisy went east and Waleran de Wavrin went north, sailed up the Danube, saw action against Muslim forces, and had to depart before winter ice. De Thoisy got in trouble and didn't get that far north. Did either actually get to the Crimea? If the VMs 'Black Sea' map was made from purely Burgundian information, was the Sea of Azov known to exist? Can we assume that the VMs artist was also an ace cartographer or had any first-hand knowledge to start with?
  
  The water outline / shoreline has been drawn with a nebuly line. Following the cloud-based etymology, it might be considered as to what extent the shores might be cloudy or foggy, the marshes at the Danube delta for instance. And if not foggy in a meteorological sense, then foggy in an intellectual sense.
  
  There are a couple of books in the KBR portion of the library of Philip the Good that are indicative of his interest in the eastern situation and the potential for another crusade which almost happened, even after the fall of Byzantium, but then flopped. Problem is that this chronology puts things into the 1450s and afterwards. Some consider that too late.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  Linda > 30-06-2020, 07:35 AM

  I think the vms artist knew about the Sea of Azov, it is on f81v, and i believe it is the facing page to this one, just as it is now, but that most of the others are shuffled. If you look at the bottom of the image, you can see one of the nebuly green fronds included on that page as a hint to the true placement. There is only one frond on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. with that orientation (up and leaning right, it is the furthest top right) with a waterway shown at that location.  
  
  
  
  Notice the Cimmerian bosphorus goes straight down into a widened area, then curves to the left and back to center, just as the waterway is drawn on f82r, it is in the same shape as the lettering for the bosphorus. It is more like a linguistic likeness, rather than a visual one, as you were saying about the images, obviously what is drawn in the vms is not the shape of the bosphorus, but a translation from visual imagery to descriptive words brought about by describing what one sees in either case seems to match.
  
  As laid out, it appears to be in reverse, and the river points to the northwest instead of the northeast, and even points west with a shortened bay. I think it's an obfuscation, maybe a bit of commentary on the size and placement of the sea in some maps (where Azov is almost as big as the Black Sea whereas clearly irl it is much smaller) or how they are copied, or the fact that in the early days you only got partial maps, not the whole thing in one piece. This one is more correct if you turn it so that the bosphorus downpipe is on the bottom, as it is in actuality, then that same shortened bay points the right way. The nymph positions are what stops you from that perception, again an obfuscation. It may also be a way to say we are not going that way right now, we will come back to it, but right now we are going northwest instead. I think the top half of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is about going up the Dnieper or Dniester (likely the latter as it is closest to being the mirror position to the Don) to the Baltic Sea, then following the shoreline back to Portugal. It marks the end of the tour of Europe. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. then goes through the Gibraltar Strait again and focuses on some of the Seas that were not mentioned the first time around, but the page after that is f75r, which brings us to the Caspian Sea, that we got to by retracing our original steps back to the Sea of Azov, this time going the other (actual) direction, following the Don and switching to the Volga at about the point where the drawn river stops, because otherwise it would have started turning off in the other direction, as the Don does at that point.
  
  I do think the artist was an ace cartographer, or at least had a lot of knowledge of maps and places. I don't think they were going by info provided by the Burgundians, there is too much reference to historical map traditions, it is more like they are teaching you to read old maps by explaining some of the issues. I dont think it is about anything new, even the ecumene is an old one, by then it should have included Indonesia and China, more like the Genoese map or the Fra Mauro. If anything, the Burgundian section of the ecumene is noticeably absent and is passed by without mention. But why have a map of what you already know, right? 
  
  

• RE: F82r as the Black Sea

  R. Sale > 30-06-2020, 06:21 PM

  So, thinking about this a bit more, I'm pretty sure that there was someone sent out by Philip the Good who made that journey - north into the Baltic, down some Russian river (the standard trade route) into the Black Sea and back to the Mediterranean and to Burgundy. And it was earlier on - 1420 to 1440 - -  IIRC.
  
  Didn't seem relevant at the time, but would have been in Richard Vaughan' s book on Philip the Good.
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