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Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
- Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
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RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Mark Knowles > 13-04-2019, 10:00 PM
Linda, after having spent a considerable time on this subject I am pretty determined to run it to ground. I would really like to compile the best expert opinion on whether it is a map or not. They may be able to refer us to relevant sources, that we are not aware of, or present us with relevant arguments. Nobody can guarantee anything, but one has to do the best one can to answer this question. -
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
nickpelling > 13-04-2019, 10:13 PM
(13-04-2019, 10:00 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda, after having spent a considerable time on this subject I am pretty determined to run it to ground. I would really like to compile the best expert opinion on whether it is a map or not. They may be able to refer us to relevant sources, that we are not aware of, or present us with relevant arguments. Nobody can guarantee anything, but one has to do the best one can to answer this question.
Mark, that's not really how historical research works. I went through tons of 15th century Italian historical maps when researching The Curse of the Voynich, but they tended to be most accessible in collections of historical maps of specific towns (e.g. a cartographic history of town/region X).
One problem was that reproduction rights were prohibitively expensive, so I could only include a tiny number in my book. :-( -
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Linda > 13-04-2019, 10:51 PM
(13-04-2019, 08:59 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You could say it's a map because of the little buildings and apparent paths and natural elements drawn on it.
However, it cannot be a map in any sense we are familiar with. So if it is indeed a map, it is one that has been altered or styled in a very peculiar way.
From wiki
[font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]A map is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. depiction emphasizing relationships between elements of some space, such as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., or themes.[/font]
Many maps are static, fixed to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or some other durable medium, while others are dynamic or interactive. Although most commonly used to depict geography, maps may represent any You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., real or fictional, without regard to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., such as in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mapping, or computer network topology mapping. The space being mapped may be two dimensional, such as the surface of the earth, three dimensional, such as the interior of the earth, or even more abstract spaces of any dimension, such as arise in modeling phenomena having many independent variables.[/font]
Although the earliest maps known are of the heavens, geographic maps of territory have a very long tradition and exist from ancient times. The word "map" comes from the medieval Latin [font=-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont,]Mappa mundi, wherein mappa meant napkin or cloth and mundi the world. Thus, "map" became the shortened term referring to a two-dimensional representation of the surface of the world.[/font]
So it doesnt have to be constrained to be geographical, nor even based in reality, although i think overall it is.
I think it resembles many world maps that dont resemble maps per se.
![[Image: three-fold.jpg?w=640&h=667]](https://quadriformisratio.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/three-fold.jpg?w=640&h=667)
![[Image: cosmas.gif]](http://slow-media.net/wp-content/uploads/cosmas.gif)
![[Image: fourfold.jpg?w=640&h=640]](https://quadriformisratio.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/fourfold.jpg?w=640&h=640)
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RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Mark Knowles > 13-04-2019, 10:59 PM
Nick, nice to talk with you here! It seems that talking with people who are more knowledgable and experienced, in an area that one is interested in, than one's self is a pretty good approach. Often I find many such people have not heard of the Voynich manuscript and can be intrigued to have been introduced to it.
Where did you read that that is an invalid way to do historical research? I freely admit to not having studied historiography, so any reference texts are always appreciated.
In fact I find it troubling that in Voynich research expert opinions are not drawn upon more.
Sure, experts don't know everything and sometimes one has to become an expert one's self on the relevant subject.
Someone who is experienced in the area may be familiar with the relevant collections of historical maps of specific towns (e.g. a cartographic history of town/region X).
Whilst I can appreciate that it may be more fun to make your own discoveries than to rely on those of others I am keen to take shortcuts whenever possible.
So far I have found expert knowledge very helpful, especially in this area.
I have seen maps in hard to see old black and white images in old journal articles, but I would appreciate seeing them as high resolution colour scans. I have a few strands I need to follow to find people who may have seen the original Northern Italian regional maps that I am interested in, but I know exist.
An expert may have dealt with the question of reproduction rights for an image already and so could get one a copy of an image for personal use. -
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Linda > 13-04-2019, 11:03 PM
(13-04-2019, 10:00 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda, after having spent a considerable time on this subject I am pretty determined to run it to ground. I would really like to compile the best expert opinion on whether it is a map or not. They may be able to refer us to relevant sources, that we are not aware of, or present us with relevant arguments. Nobody can guarantee anything, but one has to do the best one can to answer this question.
Well, i know the feeling. But i think that even if you had the most reputable map expert of all time agree with you, it probably wouldn't put you any farther ahead without correlation with the text.
Likely no one would believe it, no matter if you had every expert agree it was the exact type of map you suggest, and you pinned down 500 reasons why it works as one, there would still be those who say it is a vision of heaven or represents connection of the spirits of stars to the plants, because there is no proof against their views of it while the text remains unknown.
By all means, though, if you can engage someone in this capacity i would be interested to hear their opinion. -
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Mark Knowles > 13-04-2019, 11:17 PM
Linda, of course whatever evidence one finds there will be plenty of people who stand by their own theories, though some people's opinions change at least a little by evidence; I like to think mine are. It is not just about persuading other people, but also finding answers for myself. Contacting experts on Medieval Maps and other areas is just a small, but important part of my research.
There is a tendency it seems, sometimes, amongst some of us amateur Voynich researchers to feel that we don't need the opinion or knowledge of experts, because we are experts ourselves and so what can they tell us that we already don't know?
I have been asked to write a paper on the subject, so I really need to do all my homework on this matter and explore it from as many angles as possible. I have a responcibility to do my utmost to ensure every sentence in my paper is researched carefully, so that I do my best not to discredit the journal. -
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Linda > 13-04-2019, 11:59 PM
I kind of see it as vms studies being seen as fringe interests, and that many scholars likely would not wish to be associated with the more fringy aspects of it in case it hurts their credibility in their main body of work, or the perception thereof.
So it is less that we don't want their opinion, and more that we don't want to bother them for it.
That being said, everyone is different and there may be scholars with vms map theories of their own, who knows, all you can do is try and see what happens, it is far less likely to happen without exerting your initiative, so go for it
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RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not
Mark Knowles > 14-04-2019, 01:52 PM
Linda, I do share your suspicion when you say "in case it hurts their credibility in their main body of work, or the perception thereof." How fringe the Voynich is, is hard to say; I suppose it depends on your perspective. I would think that depends on how distinctive the contents of the manuscript are and well of course as to the question of the unreadable text. I, personally, think it must have an important place in the history of cryptography.
I think failure to understand it correctly could damage their reputation more than it would for an amateur who has little to lose if their theory is discredited.
I agree one has to be careful not to bother people; I try to avoid making a nuisance of myself when contacting people and to a person I have found everyone I have contacted to be very friendly and as helpful as they can.
A significant number of academics are unaware of the Voynich and express some curiosity in it. To be honest I think actually what I am trying to do in making contact with people more experienced in a field that I am interested in is not unusual practice. The Voynich is possibly somewhat unusual in that it falls over many different fields, even more reason I think for an interdisciplinary approach making use of a variety of expert insights that we can draw together into an overall picture.
Certainly there is a case for working from the ground up with primary sources in archives as Nick Pelling suggests, but I only think one should resort to that if one decides the available experts do not have the level of knowledge that one needs, even so they may have a clearer idea of which archives to look in. It seems foolish to overlook such potentially value sources of insight and expertise.
Having said that I was rather hoping that some others had ideas as to who may be the right people to contact in the non-map fields I listed.