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+--- Thread: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not (/thread-2739.html)
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Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019
It should be noted, as some will know, that I have devoted a significant of time to this subject.
However rather than getting the opinions of layman on the subject I have started the process of getting as much relevant expert opinion of the subject. I have been in touch with experts on medieval maps and I plan to get in touch with as many relevant experts as I can find, as I am keen to get this question as close to being settled as I can.
Now there are other suggestions as to what this page represents. As far as I am aware these are the 4 other suggestions:
1) Some kind of cosmological drawing i.e. of the planets
2) Some kind of drawing relating to the 4 elements
3) Some kind of architectural plans
4) A combination of different possibilities i.e. map and/or 1, 2, 3 above
It seems to me to explore the full analysis of these possibilities one should really consult experts on medieval cosmological drawings, elemental drawings, and architectural plans. They can give us some idea if the page likely represents something in their field of expertise.
This is not a peripheral question, but I think a vital question as if it is indeed a map as I others believe, it has the potential to impart valuable geographic insights into the origin of the Voynich, especially if it is a regional itinerary map as I have argued.
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Nikolai - 13-04-2019
(13-04-2019, 01:59 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It should be noted, as some will know, that I have devoted a significant of time to this subject.
However rather than getting the opinions of layman on the subject I have started the process of getting as much relevant expert opinion of the subject. I have been in touch with experts on medieval maps and I plan to get in touch with as many relevant experts as I can find, as I am keen to get this question as close to being settled as I can.
Now there are other suggestions as to what this page represents. As far as I am aware these are the 4 other suggestions:
1) Some kind of cosmological drawing i.e. of the planets
2) Some kind of drawing relating to the 4 elements
3) Some kind of architectural plans
4) A combination of different possibilities i.e. map and/or 1, 2, 3 above
It seems to me to explore the full analysis of these possibilities one should really consult experts on medieval cosmological drawings, elemental drawings, and architectural plans. They can give us some idea if the page likely represents something in their field of expertise.
This is not a peripheral question, but I think a vital question as if it is indeed a map as I others believe, it has the potential to impart valuable geographic insights into the origin of the Voynich, especially if it is a regional itinerary map as I have argued.
This page is not a map. In the encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is a description of the then state "Great Tartary". The structure of this state is shown on this page. I was able to translate a few words of one group: "tribe", "desire", "maybe", "negotiate, conclude a contract", "country". Based on the meaning of the words, we can assume that the sentence may have the following meaning. "A country may be formed as a result of the desire of the tribes to conclude a Treaty." I was able to translate a few more groups of words. Their meaning corresponds to the above.
(13-04-2019, 01:59 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It should be noted, as some will know, that I have devoted a significant of time to this subject.
However rather than getting the opinions of layman on the subject I have started the process of getting as much relevant expert opinion of the subject. I have been in touch with experts on medieval maps and I plan to get in touch with as many relevant experts as I can find, as I am keen to get this question as close to being settled as I can.
Now there are other suggestions as to what this page represents. As far as I am aware these are the 4 other suggestions:
1) Some kind of cosmological drawing i.e. of the planets
2) Some kind of drawing relating to the 4 elements
3) Some kind of architectural plans
4) A combination of different possibilities i.e. map and/or 1, 2, 3 above
It seems to me to explore the full analysis of these possibilities one should really consult experts on medieval cosmological drawings, elemental drawings, and architectural plans. They can give us some idea if the page likely represents something in their field of expertise.
This is not a peripheral question, but I think a vital question as if it is indeed a map as I others believe, it has the potential to impart valuable geographic insights into the origin of the Voynich, especially if it is a regional itinerary map as I have argued.
This page is not a map. In the encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is a description of the then state "Great Tartary". The structure of this state is shown on this page. I was able to translate a few words of one group: "tribe", "desire", "maybe", "negotiate, conclude a contract", "country". Based on the meaning of the words, we can assume that the sentence may have the following meaning. "A country may be formed as a result of the desire of the tribes to conclude a Treaty." I was able to translate a few more groups of words. Their meaning corresponds to the above.
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Linda - 13-04-2019
[quote="Nikolai" pid='26654' dateline='1555175427'
This page is not a map. In the encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is a description of the then state "Great Tartary". The structure of this state is shown on this page. I was able to translate a few words of one group: "tribe", "desire", "maybe", "negotiate, conclude a contract", "country". Based on the meaning of the words, we can assume that the sentence may have the following meaning. "A country may be formed as a result of the desire of the tribes to conclude a Treaty." I was able to translate a few more groups of words. Their meaning corresponds to the above.
[/quote]
How would imagery outlining the structure of the state of Great Tartary not be a map?
How is the edition of the encyclopedia relevant? Why wouldnt you just quote the relevant information if is it so particular to this edition? Or at least link to it?
How were you able to translate these words, what are their corresponding locations on the page?
We cannot assume anything. More info is required to make a determination on the veracity of your claims.
At this point i find them highly doubtful.
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Linda - 13-04-2019
Mark,
I am in agreement that it is a map, although i am not clear on your take as regional itinerary, i have seen you talk about the Council of Basel being involved, and i think i saw Geneva mentioned, so i imagine it is Alps based.
Coincidentally i see a portion of quire 13 covering the area of northern italy to lake constance, Basel is just a hop skip away. In fact i wonder why i dont see it referred to, and similarly with regard to the rhone river, and Lake Geneva, although the latter might be referenced, albeit not clearly.
Can you point to where i might find details on your idea, as all i have seen of it is from a blog comment, and a search here did not get me results.
I dont hold much hope for experts to shed light on whether it is a map as i dont see it as a copy of anything per se, although i do think it references geographical locations, but in its own way. That is a hard thing to prove, especially without benefit of proven text matches to pull it all together.
But i commend you for the effort and look forward to any revelations you may encounter in the process of doing so.
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Nikolai - 13-04-2019
(13-04-2019, 06:36 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Nikolai" pid='26654' dateline='1555175427'
This page is not a map. In the encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is a description of the then state "Great Tartary". The structure of this state is shown on this page. I was able to translate a few words of one group: "tribe", "desire", "maybe", "negotiate, conclude a contract", "country". Based on the meaning of the words, we can assume that the sentence may have the following meaning. "A country may be formed as a result of the desire of the tribes to conclude a Treaty." I was able to translate a few more groups of words. Their meaning corresponds to the above.
How would imagery outlining the structure of the state of Great Tartary not be a map?
How is the edition of the encyclopedia relevant? Why wouldnt you just quote the relevant information if is it so particular to this edition? Or at least link to it?
How were you able to translate these words, what are their corresponding locations on the page?
We cannot assume anything. More info is required to make a determination on the veracity of your claims.
At this point i find them highly doubtful.
[/quote]
Encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is freely available on the Internet. I attach a fragment of the picture and the words that I was able to translate (Fig. 1). My translation technique can be found here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ahhh!ninja/thread-2721-post-26622.html#pid26622
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Koen G - 13-04-2019
You could say it's a map because of the little buildings and apparent paths and natural elements drawn on it.
However, it cannot be a map in any sense we are familiar with. So if it is indeed a map, it is one that has been altered or styled in a very peculiar way.
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019
Koen not true. Maps of that period were very diverse. In that context it is not particularly unusual. My own view is that it is a hybrid regional map and itinerary map.
As an example of an itinerary map from an earlier period look at Matthew Paris's map of a journey from London to Jerusalem.
Northern Italian maps of the period were particularly diverse see Medieval Maps by Professor Harvey.
If you look at lots of maps of the period it becomes clear how diverse they can be.
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019
I think the idea that the map was produced as though from a template is really approaching the subject with a modern bias. Modern maps tend to be similar from one to another. However there was much more scope for self-expression in maps of that period
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Linda - 13-04-2019
(13-04-2019, 08:41 PM)Nikolai Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(13-04-2019, 06:36 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="Nikolai" pid='26654' dateline='1555175427'
This page is not a map. In the encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is a description of the then state "Great Tartary". The structure of this state is shown on this page. I was able to translate a few words of one group: "tribe", "desire", "maybe", "negotiate, conclude a contract", "country". Based on the meaning of the words, we can assume that the sentence may have the following meaning. "A country may be formed as a result of the desire of the tribes to conclude a Treaty." I was able to translate a few more groups of words. Their meaning corresponds to the above.
How would imagery outlining the structure of the state of Great Tartary not be a map?
How is the edition of the encyclopedia relevant? Why wouldnt you just quote the relevant information if is it so particular to this edition? Or at least link to it?
How were you able to translate these words, what are their corresponding locations on the page?
We cannot assume anything. More info is required to make a determination on the veracity of your claims.
At this point i find them highly doubtful.
Quote:Encyclopedia "Britannica" 1771 edition is freely available on the Internet. I attach a fragment of the picture and the words that I was able to translate (Fig. 1). My translation technique can be found here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
So you skipped some questions.
What is it if not a map, in relationship to documenting the creation of a state. ie what then is itWhat does the imagery portray? A frilly declaration of independence?
I figured it is accessible, i am asking what is so special about the entry in this particular edition of this particular encyclopedia? Will i know it when i see it or something?
21 references. It doesnt call me to figure which one you are talking about.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Here is a blog about looking up tartary in said encyclopedia. Is it in there?
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Something wrong with wiki version? I think i get the idea.
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Do you have an aversion to adding clickable links? My device is not working great, it wont let me copy the link i can highlight only at the moment. I am working on other stuff in the backgound, dont want to reboot just so i can see what you are talking about. So i fixed your link.
Quote:Found an ancient language, the format (or structure) of the alphabet which coincided with the format (or structure) of the characters used in the text. But then it did not go smoothly. The structure of the complex characters and the alphabet of the proposed language are identical, but the number of letters was slightly more. I had to go back to the text. As a result, a numerical mark was found in the text itself. Using this mark as a hint and securing a certain number of characters in two letters, everything fell into place. Later in the translation of some short words specified fixing characters for the letters was confirmed. This is the second level of encryption of the Voynich manuscript. Further, after analyzing the text with the already available data, it was found that in words that begin with vowels, these vowels are omitted. Moreover, and within words vowels are used very rarely. This can be considered the third level of encryption. These two circumstances further exclude the possibility of using computer programs to translate the text of the manuscript Voynich. "Manual" translation is also difficult. For example, if a word in the text consists of 4 characters, then this supposed word will correspond to 8 letters, 4 of which must be excluded. Thus, without a perfect knowledge of the language of ancestors can not do. When I translated short words, I used information obtained on the Internet, and they are there, as you know, limited and only conventional use. And in this case we have specific themes and ancient language.
So i read this as 'a lot of unconfirmable guesswork'.
I will leave that to your theory page to discuss, what i really wanted to know is what you call it, if not a map.
I assume you do not mean physical structure but what structure then?
RE: Resolving whether 86v is a map or not - Mark Knowles - 13-04-2019
So I would think we need to come up with some names of experts on the following:
Medieval cosmological drawings
Medieval drawings relating to the 4 elements
Medieval architectural plans
I don't know of names, off the top of my head, for experts in these areas, but maybe others do. I find that if an expert isn't quite the right person they will have happy to refer you to someone else who they think may be better suited to answer that question.