geoffreycaveney > 13-04-2019, 01:26 PM
(13-04-2019, 10:03 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But this is the problem: if you need illustrations to pattern-guess the solution, it's a one-way cipher. A large part of the VM text is without illustrations.
geoffreycaveney > 14-04-2019, 01:05 AM
-JKP- > 14-04-2019, 02:47 AM
Quote:Geoffrey: You have a text which you know is a pharmacopoeia. You have the following illustration together with Voynichese text on a page:...
geoffreycaveney > 14-04-2019, 12:28 PM
(14-04-2019, 02:47 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:Geoffrey: You have a text which you know is a pharmacopoeia. You have the following illustration together with Voynichese text on a page:...
We hope that's what is going on (that there is some correspondence between the text and the images), but it is not yet proven. It could be a journal written within an unfinished herbal manuscript. It could be trade secrets. It could be notes from a spy mission. It could be gibberish.
geoffreycaveney > 15-04-2019, 11:33 AM
(14-04-2019, 01:05 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another exercise, this one hopefully closer to an actual Voynich MS reading scenario:
You have a text which you know is a pharmacopoeia. You have the following illustration together with Voynichese text on a page
[see previous post for illustration]
And you have the following Voynichese text with it:
[ pchor ros ochepshod rosy oaiin ochepsho chaiin olaly aiin s chkas ]
[ shol odcthardy shaiin shol dsheol tory chys s shod cthalod aldary ]
[ otol olshy rchcthol cheocthy tar chaiin ody chaiin tos shy olkory ]
[ shod char chod odar ody shaiin ckhaiin olky she sh2aiiin toraiin ]
[ kaiin tshol tar dkeey shaiin aiin s chkas dar chaiin s dary kaiin olkor aiin ]
[ shod char chod chedar tedshaiin ]
"[sh2]" is the Voynichese character [sh] with a closed loop on top. All other [sh] characters in this passage of text have an open loop on top.
To help readers get started with the process of reading and understanding this Greek text, I will do the first step of converting the text into the "10-letter Greek alphabet" here:
" pior rot oiiptou rot's oan oiipto `ian onan's an t `itat
ton opikarus tan ton ption kor's `ist t tou kianou anpar's
okon ont's riikon `iioik's kar ian op's ian kot t's ontor's
tou `iar iou opar ous tan tian ont's ti nain koran
tan kton kar ptiis tan an t `itat par ian t par's tan ontor an
tou `iar iou `iipar kiptan "
And here is this same text in the 10-letter Greek alphabet in Greek letters:
" πιορ ροτ οιιπτου ροτ'ς οαν οιιπτο `ιαν οναν'ς αν τ `ιτατ
τον οπικαρυς ταν τον πτιον κορ'ς `ιστ τ του κιανου ανπαρ'ς
οκον οντ'ς ριικον `ιιοικ'ς καρ ιαν οπ'ς ιαν κοτ τ'ς οντορ'ς
του `ιαρ ιου οπαρ ους ταν τιαν οντ'ς τι ναιν κοραν
ταν κτον καρ πτιις ταν αν τ `ιτατ παρ ιαν τ παρ'ς ταν οντορ αν
του `ιαρ ιου `ιιπαρ κιπταν "
Note 1: As a reminder that Voynichese final [-y] may often represent a "vowel+s" word ending, I have marked each such case as <'s> or <'ς> in the 10-letter text above.
Note 2: As a reminder that Voynichese initial [ch] may represent either a Greek front vowel or the "rough breathing" /h/ sound, I have marked [ch] in Greek word-initial position as <`i> or <`ι> in the 10-letter text above.
Note 3: This text of 64 Voynichese words represents 52 Greek words.
Note 4: This text is in a Koine Greek dialect, which is more than a millennium earlier and thus much more archaic than the late medieval Greek dialect that the author of the Voynich MS would have spoken and written in. Thus, not every form in this text will precisely match the forms that we would expect to find in the Voynich MS itself. Nevertheless, I think that this text still looks very much like the actual Voynichese of the Voynich MS text.
Note 5: Recall that one of the most important steps in reading the 10-letter Greek text as actual Greek, is to recognize and identify where the letters rho and nu should actually be lambda and mu. In practice I believe that the identification of the lambda's is usually the most critical step, and I find that to be the case in this text as well. It is a universal linguistic tendency for the sounds /l/ and /m/ to be relatively more common in word-initial and syllable-initial position, while /r/ and /n/ tend to be much more common in word-final and syllable-final position. This tendency definitely holds true in Greek, probably to a greater degree than in most other languages, so knowing and using this tendency to help identify lambda's and mu's can potentially be of great assistance to the reader.
Note 6: Remember how "gyro" is pronounced in Greek.
Note 7: The Greek consonant cluster "k+liquid" is written with an unpronounced Voynichese vowel character between the two consonant characters in Voynichese (akin to the way in which Linear B represented such Greek consonant clusters).
Note 8: There is a well-known phenomenon in Greek grammar called "movable nu", by which an optional letter nu is added to the ends of some third person verb forms and dative plural noun forms. In this passage the Voynichese text includes such a movable nu in a few third person verb forms.
Note 9: About a dozen Greek word-final vowels are still deleted in this Voynichese text, but I do not believe this will be an absolute barrier to comprehension. (It is possible that additional "movable nu's" could retain some of these word-final vowels in Voynichese, but I want to proceed sparingly with the use of such movable nu's until I have a more complete understanding of how and to what extent Voynichese may or may not reflect this phenomenon.)
ChenZheChina > 18-04-2019, 06:52 AM
Quote:first three lines of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 1 in the Voynich ms text:
[t]eeodaiin shey epairody osaiin yteeoey shey epaiin oaiin
daiir okeody qoekeeg sar oeteody oteey keey key keeodal
ycheo s oeeg cheos aiin okesoe aram shees dalaiin dam
my Judaeo-Greek interpretation of this text:
[]ei[A]pan tis ipeirous otan skiiAis tis , epan oAn
par' Atous &Atees tAr(a) oikous o(u)k-eis(i) tees , tis t-ei[A]pAs
shio t-Aees heAt-an Atitoi AlAs , deit vasAn , fAs
Now "normalizing" this Judaeo-Greek text into a more standard Greek form:
eipan tis ipeirous otan skiais tis , eipan oun
para autous & autes tora oikous ouk eisi tes , tis t'-eipes
sou tes etan auttoi aules , deite [te] vasein , phes
Koen G > 18-04-2019, 07:11 AM
ReneZ > 18-04-2019, 07:46 AM
ChenZheChina > 18-04-2019, 08:52 AM
Quote:
- d may be representing /u~v/, while
- p and f may be representing /b~f~p/, and
- Betacism may caused the writer to write /v/ for /b/, and from where it was extended to writing /v/ for /f~p/
Quote:
- [d] is common on the first line of a paragraph, which would need to be explained.
- [p, f] are shorter when written away from the first line of paragraphs and [k, t] are taller when written on the first line. The scribe was capable of adjusting the glyph height.
- [d, l, r, s] all lack significant number of [e] following them.
- [p, f] take relatively good numbers of [ch, sh] following them, which [d] does not, especially away from the start of the line.
ChenZheChina > 18-04-2019, 10:17 AM
(18-04-2019, 07:46 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The issue of 'eipan' was addressed here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It is the immediate consequence of working 'backwards' i.e. concentrating on the Voynich to plaintext conversion rather than the other way round.
(09-04-2019, 10:01 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The most significant difficulty in explaining the vowel representations in these forms is the presence of Voynich [o] between [ee] and [d] in the first and third cases [(t)eeodaiin] and [keeodal]. The only thing I can say about this at the present stage is that I note the well-known (to Voynich researchers) distinction between "Currier A dialect", which almost never writes the combination [ed], and "Currier B dialect", which very frequently writes the combination [ed]. But Currier A dialect does use the combination [eod]. So these forms here appear to reflect the "Currier A dialect" style, avoiding the combination [ed].
Geoffrey