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• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 09-03-2019, 06:51 PM

  Interesting. This book, which i just started to read, has already given a correlation between the rosettes map and a portolan chart.
  
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  It says that a distinguishing feature of portolan charts is the alignment of Tangiers - Jerba - Alexandra as the horizontal baseline for the map.
  
  I believe Tangier is shown at the top NW corner. Well, the westernmost part of the promontory on which it is located, Tangier itself would be hidden under the rosette.
  
  
  
  I think the vms shows the area better than the Piri Reis map from the 16th century, which is oriented west up as well. The Piri Reis doesnt show enough straight section east of Tarifa, nor of Tangier, and matches the tips up too closely, both in terms of proximity and of alignment.  The rosette map has all of it right. Perhaps it did not go far enough west with the southern promontory, but then, it is cut off, so can be seen to extend even further than shown. Actually, perhaps Tangier is off map, and this is the curve to the east of Tangier. This would make it almost a perfect representation of the actual situation.
  
  The NW rosette would be the SW rosette in terms of this portolan horizontal bottom alignment, so give the rosettes map a quarter turn to match up with the modern north up map, so the sun is on the left bottom. The sun is basically the location of the area west of Tangier, the rest is an indication of elevation, ignore that part and concentrate on the rounded area around the sun being the actual shore being shown, the rest is an indication of height, not extended shoreline. Here is an elevation map to support that argument.
  
  
  
  Tangier itself is near the lower lying area between the mountainous parts and would be located under the rosette, or off map to the west, if it is the area to the east of it being displayed. Either way, this promontory is then seen to be situated quite a bit to the west of the northern tip at Tarifa, and the angle of the shoreline east of Tarifa is correct. Gibraltar and Ceuta are also hidden by the tower in the hole bridge and rosette/tubes respectively. 
  
  
  
  I had seen the tubes as representing Ceuta, but in another morph as Tunisia. You can see the similarities of each in the images above and below respectively. Similarly, the curvy bridge can be seen to be both the Gulf of Gabes, since it is the next curve after the Tunisian peninsula, but also representative of the Gulf of Sidra, or the two of them together, since between the two of them they make one large depression, or curve, albeit somewhat rectangular, in the shoreline.
  
  
  
  With either interpretation it can be seen that Tangier is in alignment with Jerba/Djerba on the Rosette map, although it is not really the case in terms of reality.
  
  
  
  Here is a map showing Alexandria and Giza. I believe the bridge between W and SW rosettes shows the pyramids of Giza, seen from above and lined up on top of each other, instead of beside. I think it is a good analogy for alignment, while avoiding the immediately recognizable pyramid shapes, whereas in another way, when you turn it back into the pyramids, you get the analogy with triangles, or deltas. I believe it is meant to represent the portion of Egypt west of the Nile, which is represented by the SW rosette. I think it is analogous to the location of Alexandria, which too is the western point of the Nile delta, which actually also looks more like a rhomboid than a triangle.
  
  
  
  The W rosette in the inital alignment of the rosettes would stand for Libya. And now it can be seen that Jerba is in alignment with Alexandria and also with Tangier, as we saw earlier.
  
  In conclusion, it appears the Rosette map qualifies as displaying the distinguishing feature of Tangier - Jerba - Alexandria horizontal baseline alignment inherent of portolan charts, when the map is rotated so the NW rosette becomes the SW rosette. This could mean it is the framework for the creation of an actual portolan chart, or to reference one.

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 20-03-2019, 04:17 PM

  Some random Portolan thoughts...
  
  Found these instances of how the original shaping would have been accomplished. Most portolan map recreationists talk about tracing previous maps, but to me it would be far more interesting to start from scratch, from the directions and distances, the way i assume they were first created. Someone had a map that didn't match reality, so they figured out where that was, made some measurements, and changed it until it matched more closely to their experience.
  
   
  
  The numbers listed seem reminiscent of the vms text. Some place names might not be recognized as words, plus there is the problem of multiple spellings, changes in place names over time, and misunderstandings. I thought Oran was Cran, and Arzew was Arzein, at first glance.
  
  Here is a portion of one that includes the east sun, and the north star. Solermo 1380
  
   
  
  The Danube got me thinking about f77r. 5 outlets of the river, seemingly to do with the elements. The one with the red puffball is labelled otol.
  
  In real life this one goes toward southeast, then turns north again. Although i was only working with the second glyphs after inital o before, i came up with l being north the one time it occurred on f80r. The second glyph does mean southeast to me from f84r.
  
  
  
  This one from about 1450 caught my eye because of the Red Sea. Then i realized the Genoese Map of 1457 has something similar going on that could also make you see it the wrong way.
  
  The first features wavy edges and has outcroppings on both gulfs, which seen from a distance can seem to be only one, off to the right, that corresponds to the nymph's head outside the water in f79v, and an exagerrated promontory to the lower left corresponds to the animal's head within the water. 
  
  Also, this one has 5 cities along the Danube which may correspond to the 5 outlets in f77r.
  
  The Genoese map has mountains only on one side. The fact that the Gulf of Suez is so much fatter than Aqaba really makes it seem like there are no gulfs to the north, but one to the east, about where the nymph standing in the fish pokes her head out of the water in the vms. Could the 1450 version have sparked this erroneous evolution? Is there an earlier instance of this trend? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at least has two bumps where the gulfs should be. (To the left)
  
  
  
  This next one made me think maybe the mouth of the Nile is represented by that thing...almost. but then the bridge made no sense, in other places it seems to usher in outside pieces of info. But i could see someone mistaking the islands and the port circle to be taken as some kind of bottlemouth blob, similar to the vms mouthed blob.
  
  

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 29-03-2019, 06:57 PM

  Thanks to JKP for pointing out, in a recent blog post Method in Medieval Maps, this map from 
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and annotating it
  
  
  
  There are a couple other maps as well. 
  
  My favourite page is a listing of cities along with latitudes and longitudes.
  
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  This manuscript includes a range of content from 1426 to 1522. I saw 1473 on one of the pages but dont know which items are from which periods.
  
  Declination in astronomy is comparable to geographic latitude, projected onto the celestial sphere, and hour angle is likewise comparable to longitude (wiki)
  
  Calculate declination by starting from the ascending node of the ecliptic and measure the angle of the object above that point. Calculate hour angle from the same point, but measure around the edge of the equatorial circle instead of the angle above it. 
  
  
  
  The table shown above captures the movement of this point through time, not from this manuscript but i am looking for others to compare their structure, to see if any of them jive with the structure of any of the vms text.
  
  I include the pic from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. because that is what i think it represents, the spindel symbol turns on a straight axis (ie acts like a sounding line to form a perpendicular reference to the ground, and represents time, distance and here, longitude. The caput draconis symbol sits on an angle near the spindel's equator, and represents latitude. I still like Vviews' purse idea because it represents something you would take on a journey, as opposed to something you would use at home, and you would need the tools of navigation with you on the journey at hand, where better to keep them? A marine sandglass, perhaps. Something to meausure the angular aspects of the moon, planets, or stars, and tables, charts, or volvelles to correlate them.
  
  Part 2 of this manuscript is, coincidently, a bunch of volvelles. My favourite is this one, which includes calculations for caput draconis, or the ascending node of the moon. 
  
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  From this info i can see how a coordinate system might have worked at an early date (regardless of the date of this particular manuscript) to arrive at coordinates for comparative placement. Things like records of timing of eclipses, or bringing hourglasses along during east or west trips and noting the difference in time based on initial calculated time at the first location plus hourglass time vs calculated time at the destination could be used to generate comparative longitudes. 
  
  Combined with local distances and directions, the compilation and plotting of data would result in a reasonable depiction of reality.

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 12-04-2019, 10:27 PM

  I was revisiting one of Jeurgen's papers on the rosettes, and to my surprise he wrote a bunch more in 2016 that i hadnt seen. The most relevant to discuss here is 
  
  Wastl, Juergen (2016): Medieval Triangulation: Location, distance and range of city landmarks in the Rosette folio of the Voynich Manuscript. figshare. Paper. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  
  
  You can click on his name on the paper to get to the rest of his papers posted at this site. I havent gone through them all yet, comparison to Aristotle's Meteorolgica sounds interesting too. 
  
  The triangulation done compares that of the directions and distances of Constantinople and Alexandria from Jerusalem, with the identified counterparts in the Rosettes. The distances are not the same, those in the rosettes being equidistant in his reckoning, but the angles are similar, being roughly 90 degrees, on the real map Cairo was closest to this point.
  
  My own view of the rosettes puts Alexandria elsewhere, although Constantinople could be in the same vicinity, as is one of my Jerusalem locations. I wonder if it works if i try it with mine. The idea is that it is basically a right angle on a modern standard projection map. If we are going to get technical and precise we will need to state the projection type of the maps used. Here is a page to play with those You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  But i am just taking an initial look-see right now..
  
  Nope, i end up with 180 degrees, and although that seems somewhat remarkable, it doesn't compare at all with the reality based version. If i use my other Jerusalem location (S rosette center) i do get 90 degrees, though. Interestingly enough my Constantinople line is longer than the Alexandria line, as it is in real life. I guess i should plot it and do some measurements.
  
  (I am just measuring with a corner of paper on the screen at the moment.) 
  
  In case you want to check it out for youself, Jeurgen's Jerusalem is the center of the central rosette, mine for this purpose, anyway, is the center of the S rosette. His Alexandria is the blue bit on the tower in the hole near the NW rosette, my location would be on the inner northern part of the bridge near the south side of the W rosette. His Constantinople is the blue bit on the castle on the bridge south of the NE rosette, mine would be the lower end of the same bridge, nearer my Aegean Sea (E rosette). It would be on the other side of the Aegean Sea in real life though. This is why I never thought to do such a test, because things are out of scale, out of place, and tend to morph to different sizes and directions in my view of it, obviously it is not a clear representation of the Mediterranean area, nor of the ecumene, or even as a map at all, to some.
  
  In fact, that was part of the purpose of the paper, to see if the rosettes could qualify as a map.
  
  Boy it is harder than i thought to get all 3 places shown on a map image. Between the 3 i think you can see where they all are. I included the last one to get a sense of scale. A quick check with my brochure corner does show Cairo to be the closer match to 90 degrees, so in that way i am already out from reality  
  
  
  
  So it is pretty difficult even with my simple method since my touchscreen can senseìiìi the paper and things are moving and zooming around but i get a tentative 2.25 to 1.25 measurement on my lines. If the 2.25 is 1170km, then the other i calculate at 650. Evidently flying distance is 423km. Oh wait, another site says bird fly distance is 696 km. Let me find a reference that will give us comparisons for both...2.25/1.25=1.8 just to get a quick comparison of distances.
  
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  This one says 1127 nne vs 427 wsw  = 2.6
  
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  This one 1168 vs 424  =2.7
  
  So nowhere near. Of course, no one in 1400 would be measuring by air, but then again they didn't drive cars either. Just for funsies, driving distance from google 1864 vs 767  =2.4
  
  In any case, it is an interesting exercise, and could lead to further correlations upon further testing and examination of various other locations. I encourage anyone else working along these lines to examine their own locations, if they pan out in some way, let's hear about it!  Even if it isn't on the basis of comparison with mappae mundi, it could be interesting to find any correlation in distance or direction with any other map.  
  
  Within Jeurgen's paper are mentions of Diane's thoughts that the rosettes "...fit...into the history of nautical charts...".  Evidently Diane has an identified Alexandria location that is different from Jeurgen's as well, but I do not know the specifics, nor whether there exists an identified location for Constantinople or Jerusalem in her writings, but as Jeurgen points out, the methods outlined were meant for use with the mappae mundi of Christian heritage, whereas Diane's "...eastern influence...", or what I understand to be a Hellenistic view, may not be compatible with this analysis. 
  
  My views may not qualify either, in that such maps are not the only types or origins thereof to which i am comparing the rosettes, and the Jerusalem location i am using to measure for comparable results is not central, but i have been able to see correlations with such maps portrayed within certain perspectives, and it is enough for me to keep these methods of analysis in mind for future consideration.

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 15-01-2021, 03:39 PM

     
  
  
  
  Above the vms page example is a screenshot of a Jason Davies page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. The idea came as an extension of my idea that the pointing finger looking like Azov and that nymph being at the top meant to turn the map so Azov points up. I may not have rotated all the way now that i can see it, but it is close enough to show the idea.
  
  You can see this in any map of Europe. Rotate so that the Italian peninsula and the Red Sea (if shown) are horizontal. This gives you a basically east up orientation, which most mappa mundi had before this time.
  
  I am posting it to show better how the directions work out, because they work out extremely well. It is a map of Europe with the sea of Azov pointing up, and Sagres Point pointing down, to match up with the orientation of the nymphs i have identified. I was kind of amazed how it creates a cross with the Alps as the center, which matches up perfectly with my interpretation of the Rosette with the TO map attached. Also glaringly apparent is that England et al do not seem to be included, i think it is mainland only, given the fleur de lys, which would represent Burgundy and France. But its absence could mean that it is the intended audience, or the origin.
  
  Then i realized, many of the orientations in quire 13 are portrayed in this manner. So this is to investigate this thought. 
  
  So let's start with f76r. This page benefits from this view in terms of orientation matching. Sagres Point. It is now oriented correctly if you are looking at the westernmost tip from an east up perspective. The nymph is east up (0). The point at the top can be thought of as receding into the distance, or flipped to become the far out view (180) while the current orientation fits the zoom view.
  Gibraltar peninsula also matches by angle 0. Morrocan peninsula is 90.
  
  Spanish and French coast of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are at a 90 degree angle in comparison. Lake Garda however is now seen to be straight up from Genoa, although in the vms it looks like straight down, so 180 degrees. The lake itself is turned 90.
  
  F80v Alps 90, Lake Constance 90. 
  
  F84r the two seas are 0 the lake is 90.
  
  F84v the page is oriented north up so 90 in comparison with this orientation.
  
  So far it seems like nothing is askew or random, just rotated 90 or 180. This makes me feel like this is an important idea.

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 19-04-2021, 05:49 AM

  I came across a Pietro Vesconte atlas from 1318 that has more than one coincidental depiction with what i see in quire 13. 
  
  (
  
  Here are the coincidences:
  
  1. I believe quire 13 starts at the southwesternmost point of Europe on f76v  Vesconte's depiction starts (ends, but if you look upside down, as we do above, it begins) at that promontory, in fact it does not even show the northern part in that map but continues it on another, so you are forced to start there for lack of other information.
  
  2. I believe the first part (Europe) ends where it begins by going by river to the Baltic sea from the Black Sea, passing through into the North sea, then hugging the shore, which is depicted in the vms as a line on f82v, which takes a 180 turn, then does a little jog. In the sequence above we don't see the Baltic sea either, but the shore looks very straight to start, then curves, then the 180 turn is the Bay of Biscay, then the jog is clearly seen as the return to Lisbon, where the other map had started. 
  
  3. I believe it goes around again and shows the Alborean and Balearic seas on the bottom of f82v. This is like starting again with the first map after seeing the northern map. 
  
  
  
  
  4. The top of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shows the top edge of the first chart in this grouping.
  
  5. The west side of the Italian peninsula is depicted as horizontal in the vms. Note the jagged protrusions analagous to the rock piles at the top of the vms portrayal, these are the various promontories, similar to the one we started from on f76v, but smaller. Count them, there are 7 points.
  
  6. The east side of the Italian peninsula is also depicted horizontally, but below instead of above the west side. Here the promontories are indicated by buckets (which stand for river deltas and the sediments they produce which become like promontories over time also. Again, count them there are four, if you include the one not shown under the nebuly line, itself a coincidence since on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a nebuly line is found in similar vicinity. The eastern side of the Adriatic has been blanked out, the information comes on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  7. None of the items in the third map are included per se although Sicily is hidden inside Mezzogiorno, where the boot would be, which makes sense insofar as the Kingdom of the two Sicilies as the two were known together.
  
  
  
  8. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is analogous to the top chart. The middle chart has no analogous imagery that i have discerned.
  
  9. The bottom of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is analagous with the bottom chart. 
  
  Furthermore i found that most Atlases started with the Black Sea, and worked their way back to the Atlantic, as this one does. However they are south oriented, so that would turn it the other way if you looked at it north up. There was one atlas that did it in the opposite direction, more in keeping with the vms, in 1321, which is currently held in Switzerland. The other publication that contained maps that followed the west to east route was the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Crucis compiled by Marino Sanudo. R Sale has mentioned a copy, there were many.
  
  
  
  This is a mappa mundi included. With the exception of the heart shaped area near the top, it matches the ecumene of quire 13 quite well. The empire ring of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might reference this and other areas not covered, eschewing them to travel back toward Egypt, as pointed to, and just as Sanudo's planned crusade suggests.
  
  The publication name in English is literally "The Book of Secrets of the Faithful of the Cross" and is mostly a proposal for continuing the crusades, mostly against Muslim areas of the near east and Africa, by way of historical political and trade information regarding places and a plan of attack which leads down the Nile. From wiki:
  
  Not only Mediterranean seaports, but the lakes of North Italy and central Europe, and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ports, are enumerated as nurseries of crusading mariners and marine skill. Finally, after the conquest of Egypt, Marino designs the establishment of a Christian fleet in the Indian Ocean to dominate and subjugate its coasts and islands. He also gives a sketch of the trade-routes crossing Persia and Egypt, as well as of the course of Indian trade from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the Nile.
  
  Much of this is included in what i see in the vms as well, with the exception of Coromandel, but this might be an empire ring inclusion. The ideas of Muslims being the ones from whom the secrets are to be kept seem in keeping with the vms spindles pointing out places controlled by same.
  
  I thought it enough coincidences to note them. What do you think?

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 12-07-2021, 12:38 PM

  The map or chart at a 45 degree idea had me wondering, why would it be presented to be viewed in such ways? For personal reasons, which happen to obfuscate the information from others? I had thought perhaps someone in Italy would have seen maps of the Italian peninsula as up and down, rather than on an angle, and projected that onto the world. But then i thought maybe they may have been sitting at a corner of a large map and just learned to see it that way. Or, as i just came across, perhaps someone had a globe and made it up like a combo of Crates and Oresme.  This is what they'd see, except anything below the equator would be thought to be water, if they held to that line of thinking. But perhaps we catch a glimmer of the next wave of thought, we add Ptolomy back into the mix. By then several people and their stories of China had been documented and more were coming. Ptolemy not only described a map, but things like stereographic projection and how the earth would be best represented as a sphere. His works began to be reintroduced to Italy around 1300, and were being translated from Greek to Latin in 1406, so it is possible that there were earlier versions than the oldest surviving, in fact it is known that some were commissioned, but did not survive. 
  
  The Behaim globe shows the exact ecumene of the vms quire 13 periplus in its upper half. This half would be the one on the right in an Oresme style tripartate inverted TO map.
  
  
  
  Although the angle here would be about 23.5 degrees or so, the perspective of a point on a globe shifts in degree if you move the viewpoint. So a person sitting slightly to the right of the globe set in this manner might see it at a steeper angle. It may also explain 90 degree views of things, if the copyist tended to sit on one side or the other.  Or maybe it was not a globe at all. 
  
  
  
  With this projection, the portion that is shown on s portolan chart is on an angle also.
  
  
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• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 05-01-2025, 04:34 AM

  
  
  

  (28-03-2021, 08:37 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Azov at the top, Burgundy to the left, Spain to the bottom and the entire Italian Peninsula to the right

  I have recently updated my understanding of this page. What i noticed in relooking was that each of the figures, which I had thought of as the cardinal directions, are each drawn in such a way as to outline the major waterbodies in the vicinity as assigned above. I have always thought this page to be about water, especially with the blue colouring, but had mostly named the land, by countries, but it makes so much more sense to be describing the waterbodies instead. This ties in directly with quire 13 which I also see as describing shorelines and waterways.
  
  This was quite exciting to me in that this provides further visual mnemonics to enable the drawing of a realistic facsimile of a portolan chart, plus adds the structure of the cardinal directions. It basically shows that Europe is bound by the North Sea, the Black Sea at its eastermost extent, the Ligurian/Sardinian/Tyrrhenian/Ionian Seas (the Mediterranean Sea) to the south, and the Gibraltar Strait, which suggests the Atlantic Ocean, to the west. 
  
  I will start with North, which is to the left in the drawing. It is the first one I noticed as indicating more than clothing with the blue paint, due to the uneven arms, and it is also where the Stolfi marker is, so it seems apt to start here.
  
  North. I had first identified this figure as Burgundy in the sense of 1432 Burgundian Netherlands ruled by Philip the Good (who is completely covered in fleur de lis in some representations), because of the iris emblem such as French and Burgundian rulers both used in their coats of arms. If it is drawn before 1432 then i meant the Netherlands in whatever political sense at the time, and the emblem would refer to France, which i now think it does in any regard. The emblem does not point north, however, seems to be more like west or NW. It would be located past Ireland, which would be located just above the hand, and I think the way the emblem is held, it literally states that you are likely to lose your direction if you continue past that point, whether north or west, there will certainly be no landmarks to go by for a very long time.
  
  
  
  The hand holding the emblem has six fingers. I think this is a hint that this drawing refers to something larger than the figures would seem to indicate. There are biblical references to men with six fingers who were giants. 2 Samuel 21:20. I would say that my interpretation certainly counts as having these figures represent giants. The nymphs in quire 13 are also giants, standing for things like cities or ports and the surrounding regions, but these four figures are much larger still, and encompass very large areas, and can include many countries.
  
  The blue body here can be seen as a mnemonic for the North Sea which includes the figure's left arm (on the right) as the Skarragat Strait, with the other arm denoting the English Channel. Note the different types of sleeves drawn. It is all 45 degrees off though. The Skarragat arm does not bend 90 degrees like the shoreline, but neither would you sail it like that, so i think that explains the smooth curve. The head would be included with today's interpretation of the North Sea boundaries. Perhaps they thought of the Norwegian Sea to start at Norway, which would make sense also. If you look closely at the Bienecke original, you can see lines drawn on the English Channel sleeve which coincide with the bumps on the shoreline of France, a big triangle and a little one, in the region of Normandy, with the hand making up the bumps to the west, in fact, the hand itself resembles Brittany somewhat, which is right below it, so might be a mnemonic in that way as well. The iris starts where the shorelines stop, and is over the Bay of Biscay, still over France at the 45 degree angle, but north up, it is actually over Spain. But if the hand is also a mnemonic for Brittany, then it would be France holding onto the Emblem.
  
  Notice the arm on the right is higher than the one the left and the sleeves have been drawn differently to compensate. The lower sleeve edges match the heights of the straits in comparison with the base shoreline. The inward divot in the abdomen marks the area of the Dover strait, the "breast" above it is analogous with the Thames Estuary. The line of the body separates the North Sea from the English Channel arm, as it is not included as part of the Sea, even though the other strait is. The top of the sleeve at the shoulder is possibly not colored because it's not really corresponding to any water but would look weird if the sleeve ended so low.
  
  Here is a mnemonic that lets you know how many countries for which this tiny little drawing can itself be a visual mnemonic: 
  
  
  
  Look at the North Sea pic with the left lower corner being the bottom, and notice this puts the arms of the North Sea in a similar position to the drawing when looked at with head up. I don't know what it is about 45 degree angles and the vms but I come across them all the time. Because of the Stolfi marker being located where it is, makes me feel like Noord Holland might be especially indicated. Belgium would be "under" the Thames Estuary of the "breast", so the Netherlands would be where the Stolfi marker is. It even seems to be extended into the blue of the shirt, maybe to indicate the Flevo Lake, or Zuijder Zee as it was previously known, which does make such a divot in the shoreline in about that much space as indicated.
  
  If one were to look "seaward" from the perspective of someone standing midway the shoreline of the Netherlands, one would see in one's mind's eye the North Sea in the pose shown, as an upright figure. But in relation to actual north, the figure is 45 degrees off. However, knowing this can help one draw that section, and it helps keeps people from recognizing the information.
  
  I had always wondered why these places didn't show up as more than a straight line in quire 13, but now here is definition above and beyond the level of sophistication of most portolan charts with regard to this area. Early ones did not include this area at all. Others  had the British Isles way too close to the shore. 13th century Ptolemy maps might have been used, but the head would not be there as Scotland took a turn which covered that area but the Skaggarat arm would be smooth as shown. Pietro Vesconte had a 1311 map which also showed the North Sea with sophistication. The Catalan Atlas, not so much. Even many later portolans don't show a true to life North Sea. 
  
  
  
  East. If the hand is the Sea of Azov, the rest would be the Black Sea and the Danube. Some of it is hidden, which helps with obfuscation, and covers other parts not drawn, like the Sea of Marmora, the Aegean Sea, and the eastern Mediterranean. Pretty much aligned North up, even though this would signify East. I think his head denotes various rivers, especially the Dnieper, not sure if his nose is about the shape of the river being like a nose, (See Ukraine in the blue Europe map), his own nose might be in the first leg on the River; or possibly indicative of populations of people that lived in the vicinity of Kiev, which is located on the river, for thousands of years, as some have mentioned ethnicity, but i think generally it is related to the geography. The hand is not quite in the right position, it would need to be moved to the left, on top of the shoulder, but more about that later. The other arm is analogous with the last stretch of the Danube, albeit a bit fat for that, but more about that later too.
  
  
  
  South. Mirror image, but again at a 45 degree angle. Perhaps the sails, winds or fountains being mirrored in this section helps to signify this. The lighter Tyrrhenian Sea in the map is analogous with the face. There is no chalice denoted in the water bodies, instead it seems to signify the locations on the land, like Venice and Verona, perhaps the pointy part would indicate Lake Constance, on the other side of the Alps. Lake Constance is also discussed in quire 13 as well, on f80v. It is located where Germany, Switzerland and Austria meet, and is part of the Rhine river system. Maybe it even goes a little further to indicate the rise of the Danube. Perhaps it is meant to signify a multitude of navigable rivers, all located 8n the general vicinity of the areas denoted by the chalice. 
  
  The hair being split by the cap could be used as a mnemonic to remember to place Corsica and Sardinia, small one above the big one, in the orientation found, just below the cap or beanie the figure is wearing. In the map you would draw a straight line down from about Monaco to denote to top of the cap, this coincidentally would be about where the Balearic Sea would be on the other side of the line, which seems to be excluded. I included the other picture even though it is depicting a shoreline from 500 BC as it shows the rest of the coverage of the body, and you can see that it fits pretty well with the diagram while simultaneously excluding anything else to the east with a quick line.
  
  
  
  West. This one is different, in its color, appearing female, and in the size of the waterbody it portrays. These on this page are not nymphs, they are much larger. I think perhaps i would call them Neirids (Sea Nymphs) or Oceanids, as these were closer to the Titans, and so would be expected to be bigger. (Although, perhaps not quite this huge!) This one is a more reasonably sized giant in comparison to the nymphs.
  
  
  
  Although much smaller than the other three, this one is larger than the two nymphs on f76v which denote Ceuta and Gibraltar (3rd and 4th), and signifies the water between the two landforms that the nymphs portray. A portion of the strait is drawn on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also, and it is analogous with the Rosettes page drawing of the landform in the corner near the crescents rosette, which does not show Ceuta and Gibraltar due to being covered by pathways and the nearby rosette. So this one brings all of those together.
  
  This lower drawing had me stumped for awhile again, as i had only identified it as being related to Spain initially due to being the last of the three, and the Iberian Peninsula just made sense to be West. No body of water that size anywhere near Spain that I could think of that would look like that and have the size of the North or Black Seas. Then, I saw the shape. Mostly because i had been staring at pictures of the Gibraltar Strait with regard to comparing with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the Rosettes for awhile before looking at this, because i think those two show it as well, and that it is featured with such detail due to the taking of Ceuta in 1415, as it was being updated on any maps thereafter. The lighter bluegreen painted part is the strait. The blue part of the sweater is the Alboran Sea, or Mediterranean, that is why it can still be blue, as it is a larger body of water analogous to the others, even if the whole waterbody has not been drawn. The other side is cut off so no need to mark where the strait ends, the inference is that where it ends, there is the Atlantic Ocean. The dress or tunic is lighter because it is closer, as water is compared to looking in the distance being dark versus straight down at the shore, generally trasparent, thus denoting it as being smaller in size. Maybe that is why she is female when the other three who are comparable in waterbody size are all male, plus the clothing had to be a tunic or dress due to the shape of the strait
  
  Also, the vague shape of the Iberian peninsula can be seen if you squint and take all the outlines of the drawing to encompass the area in a north up orientation, her upside down head would be the Gibraltar peninsula. The three wreaths could be indicated to go where her stick is pointing, and that would indicate the Balearic Sea and its groups of Islands, being the only other sea missing between what is drawn and the South Nereid seas. Seen in this way, this drawing covers analogous space to the others, but with land, and then uses the blue to zoom in and pinpoint an important waterbody, which suggests the Atlantic Ocean, so in this way is both smaller and larger than the other waterbodies at the same time.
  
  I just realized everyone is kind of pointing. North Nereid points westish, but I think it means hug the shoreline southward to find the Westernmost point, then continue to follow shore. West Nereid points with her cane towards the Balearic Sea which will bring one to the Ligurian or Sardinian Seas, represented by South. South Neireid points to the Danube. The Danube drains to East. So the obfuscated Eastern Meditteranean et al is not even necessarily needed, but South can also go east another way, up through the Aegean Sea and Sea of Marmora to East. South can also go North via the Rhine river, or by going through West. East Nereid points to the Don River, which can get one to the Volga, up through the Baltic Sea to the North Sea.
  
  Orientation recap, not sure what it means, just taking a look.
  North Nereid is NW in real life. If you look at the drawing head up, it's a 45 degree turn to the right.
  East Nereid is oriented N. The drawing is already head up. 
  South Nereid is oriented NW, mirror image. If you look at the drawing head up, it is a 45 degree turn to the right, then flip.
  West Nereid is oriented NE. If you look at the drawing head up, she is already on 45 degree angle. 135 degree turn to the right, or 45 degree turn to the left from current placement.
  
  So, let's rebook at East. I noticed all of these pretty much at one go, but was having some trouble with East, it was problematic due to the reasons stated earlier. Then my mind's eye flipped, and I saw the western Mediterranean, upside down. Wow. South Nereid is basically included, in less detail, at half size. (That is why the Danube is fat, it doubles as the Adriatic.) I saw it mainly because of the bubbly triangles on the arm, they look like the Gibratar Strait, instead of the Kerch strait, which is the other way around. (That is why the hand is too far to the right, as the lower part of the Sea of Azov is connected to the Black Sea at the Kerch strait, but there needed to be more water to show the Atlantic between Sagres Point and Africa for it to be recognizeable, and also, nothing thus far had shown that the African coast extends further west than Sagres. Follow the finger for that, but Sagres is at the wrist. This is why I was asking if anyone could see these rock pile looking triangles, which I guess no one did, yet I still think it is purposeful. It's funny because I have always equated the two straits to each other ever since seeing f76v, reminds me of the clashing rocks from Jason and the Argonauts, which refers to the Kerch strait, seemed to be drawn that way on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. but in relation to Gibraltar, and here we have the opposite, a Gibratar strait in place of Kerch.
  
  The implications are that the western Mediterranean is similar in size to two Black Seas, which makes sense, since 2 East = 1 South + 1 West. The north end of the Adriatic is approximately another Black Sea width away from the Black Sea. So you would need four panels to draw a standard portolan chart, the last would contain the Black Sea pretty much across its width, the third woud have Venice near the right edge. Now there is a framework to go by to draw all the rest shown in this quire and quire 13.
  
  The next thing I did was to come here to start posting these discoveries, but went to the first page by mistake. But it was serendipitous because this was in that first post:
  
  
  Cresques Abraham, 1375 Majorca
  
  So here are the very panels that were implied by this tiny little double mnemonic, with the Black Sea in the fourth panel. Woohoo! Major confirmation bias going on here, haha. I was recently trying to draw what I saw in quire 13 again but kept making things too big for the paper I was using. Was thinking there should be some structural directions to go by. Then it occurred to me that maybe this page would provide that structure, which it already did as I understood it before, (cardinal directions) but now far moreso than I had ever expected. Next I will try to put this all into step by step drawing instructions. Might take awhile.
  
  If the vms diagrams are too blurry, you can see them here:
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• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Barbrey > 05-01-2025, 07:48 AM

  Hi Linda, I hurried over when I saw you had posted and began on the first page. To my dismay, I’m afraid I didn’t understand all the terminology and became confused from the beginning. It doesn’t help I usually read and post on my phone so couldn’t make the maps large enough to see detail. I will have to read when I’ve got time to plug in my computer. But rest assured I’m very interested so will dedicate some hours to this later in the week!

• RE: Portolan Map Possibilities

  Linda > 05-01-2025, 08:39 AM

  Hi Barbrey, 
  
  Aw, sorry, I have been reading some of my old stuff so I know what you mean, sometimes the clarity is lacking, and issues with images don't help at all. Let's see if I can do a more succinct job of it here.
  
  The idea is that the 4 figures are North(the North Sea) East(the Black Sea) South(the mid Meditterranean Sea, Tyrrhanean and Adriatic basically) and West(the Gibraltar Strait, implying the Atlantic Ocean) with north at the left, which is pretty normal, East up was common before 1400.
  
  Each has traits that make them the embodiment of the seas I mentioned, although one is mirrored and almost all are at 45 degree angles for some bizarre reason. I think it might be because they knew in the future I would have trouble with graphics on a tablet. Haha
  
  I tried to put the graphics side by side with some extras but you kinda have to tilt things to get the idea until I can do a better job of doing some collages with things turned the right way to compare. So I could see how that would not work out on a phone.
  
  Then, it turned out the Black Sea embodiment also embodied a larger portion of the Mediterranean Sea upside down, starting from the West to the Adriatic, and the Adriatic is about another Black Sea length away from the Black Sea. 
  So that laid out the idea that if you had 4 panels, the Black Sea would be in the fourth, Venice would be at the right edge of the third, and you could fill in the rest from there.
  
  Then I accidentally went to the first post in this thread and saw a photo of the Catalan Atlas, which was serendipitous because there was the Black Sea in the fourth panel as predicted by what I saw in that tiny little guy at the top of the page.
  
  So my confirmation bias is at 100% right now but it would be nice if someone else could see it too. The likenesses are not 100% but I find them to be pretty darn good given that most portolan charts don't show the North Sea realistically at all.
  
  Lemme see if I can do a few quick collages without having to do the 45 degree thing.
  
  Here is the North Sea comparison, still have to kinda look at the vms pic from lower right corner to put the arms in the right places.
     
  The Stolfi marker is the double line just below. It tells you where to start reading the text. I think the double line extends into the blue, marking the bay where it says Netherlands on the map.
  If you then look at the breast area, and slightly below it becomes an innie instead of outtie, that looks like where it says Strait of Dover on the map, and the bay above it.
  The English Channel arm has triangles drawn on it that match bumps in the shoreline that you can still see on the map edge. The triangles are better seen with higher definition.
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  This one is West. Hoping it is a little more self evident, although again it isn't perfect. At least the 45 degree angle is taken care of already.
     
  
  This one is South. Mirror image at 45 degrees only up to the shoulders with invisible chalice and hair smooshed onto forehead, but again hoping it is basically self evident.
     
  
  This one is East. Straight comparison. River Danube on the left about 3/4 up is fat because upside down it is the Adriatic, or the arm of South. You can kinda see a mini version of South, upside down. The triangles on the other arm look like a mini Gibraltar Strait. His face looks like the first leg of the Dnieper river, I would have to add more pics for that, this pic it just goes to his nose. Same for the upside down bit. Will see what I can do tomorrow.
     
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