- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Who holds pears like that?!
- Who holds pears like that?!
-
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
Koen G > 21-11-2020, 05:54 PM
![[Image: 3140a05e939a89e395a48a58af06e385.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/564x/31/40/a0/3140a05e939a89e395a48a58af06e385.jpg)
Can anyone find out why this woman is holding a pear-like fruit? I tracked down the source of the Pinterest image to this page: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I tried to read the French text but it's hard, sometimes I can read entire sentences without effort and sometimes it looks like Chinese. I see talk about eating but couldn't discern any fruit.
Also note the crenelations
-
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
bi3mw > 21-11-2020, 06:16 PM
I don't know if this means anything, but the ornaments on the "wallpaper" in the background look like the fruit the woman is holding in her hand.
To me it looks like garlic or an onion. -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
MarcoP > 21-11-2020, 07:04 PM
(21-11-2020, 05:54 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also note the crenelations
BNF Fr. 343 was made in Milan:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I think we discussed this in the past, but I cannot find the old post at the moment. -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
davidjackson > 21-11-2020, 07:08 PM
I would suggest that it is as simple as being a feminine and royal fruit suitable for representing the court of Queen Guinevere. -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
ReneZ > 21-11-2020, 07:45 PM
My bold theory is that it is a fig, to be matched by the, whatever, hanging from the guy's chest, and this is a sneaky joke from the illustrator. -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
R. Sale > 22-11-2020, 01:51 AM
Did someone say sneaky?! Should we really really be surprised by finding something sneaky? Artists painting their faces in the crowds. Something is hidden, but we do not know what it is. How do we find it? Obviously the artist knew what was intended. Why can't the VMs be sneaky?
As to the discussion of 'holding three pears', the answer seems evident. There is a clear dynamic in play regarding the relative size of the hand versus the relative size of the pears. As the relative size of the three pears increases, it becomes more difficult to hold the larger ends of all three pears in the palm of the hand and easier to hold them by the stems. Try it and see. -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
DONJCH > 22-11-2020, 03:45 AM
Whatever she is holding, it's sprouting. -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
Koen G > 22-11-2020, 11:09 AM
(22-11-2020, 03:45 AM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Whatever she is holding, it's sprouting.
That's most likely a part of the branch it was growing on... I don't know anything that sprouts like that. A remarkable detail is that, like bi3 noticed, the figure returns in the background and those also have "leaves", some explicitly shaped like a cross.
Marco: aah yes, I remember vaguely. That must be why it feels so similar to the Tacuina (which is where the pear-picking woman is from). -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
Helmut Winkler > 22-11-2020, 02:31 PM
Are you sure it is a fruit and not rather a perfume bottle or something similar? And the guy comimg in seems to have a prosthetic arm. Does someone know the Lancelot story better than I do? -
RE: Who holds pears like that?!
MichelleL11 > 22-11-2020, 05:23 PM
I found an English translation of what is likely at least similar to this text --
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I believe this is the right "story" based on the relatively close title match and this discussion in Wikipedia:
Since this is an early folio (3), I am hypothesizing that this miniature shows the conversation between Galahad and the queen (lady in the blue dress) about who his father was (that is, Lancelot). I think the man is Galahad, because a few pages before this, in this version, he had pulled the sword from the stone, which what I think the thing around his neck is. It is described as a rich sword with a pommel with gold lettering. I do not know why the sword is drawn the way it is or hangs around his neck like it does, but I have stopped questioning such things about drawing in medieval manuscripts. No comment about the possible symbolism (LOL).
I do think, however, it is clear that the "thing" around his neck is needed for identification by the reader of who the person is, like the blue dress, relative size, and demeanor of the woman seems clear indication that she is the queen. Since Galahad has a sword with a gold-colored pommel in the story, I am hypothesizing that is who is represented. Since we need a queen-type character in a conversation with someone in the early part of the story, in my opinion, this part of the story fits this miniature.
Of course, someone who can read medieval French would be needed to confirm all of this conclusively.
Here is the full translation concerning the conversation (Comfort, p.23):
"Then the queen came and sat down beside Galahad, and began to ask him about his origins, his country and his family. And he told her a good deal, as one who was well informed, but he never said anything about being the son of Lancelot. However, from what the queen heard she learned well enough that he was the son of Lancelot and that he had been born to the daughter of King Pellés, of whom she had often heard. But because she was determined to learn this from his own mouth, if possible, she asked him for the truth about his father. He replied, however, that he was not sure whose son he was. “Ah, sire!” said she, “you are concealing the truth from me. Why do you do that? So help me God, you need never be ashamed of hearing your father’s name. For he is the handsomest knight in the world, and he is descended on all sides from kings and queens and from the highest lineage known, and has had until now the reputation of being the best knight in the world; wherefore you too ought to surpass all those in the world. And certainly you resemble him so wonderfully that there is no man here so foolish as to fail to notice it, if he should take heed.” When Galahad heard these words he was filled with embarrassment. But he replied at once: “Lady, since you know him so well, you will be able to tell me who he is. And if it is he whom I think to be my father, I shall know that you speak the truth; and if it is not he, I should not be able to agree with you, whatever you might say.” “In God’s name,” she replied, “since you will not mention his name, I will. He who begot you is my lord Lancelot of the Lake, the handsomest, best and most gracious knight, the most desired and best beloved of any born in our time. So it seems to me that you ought not to conceal the fact either from me or anyone else; for you could not be sprung from a more honourable man or a better knight.” “Lady,” he replied, “since you know it so well, why should I tell you? In time it will be known well enough.”
The queen and Galahad continued their conversation until night fell."
SO -- nothing about pears, or fruit, or even the presence of other people during this conversation or the surrounding text of Chapter 1. As Koen's quick scans indicated, there is a fair amount of discussion about everyone sitting down to eat - but again, no pears or fruit.
Of course, I could be wrong, as I have not read the full translation -- but I think it's not a bad bet.