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Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

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• Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

• Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  Koen G > 21-09-2018, 10:27 AM

  To get a better picture of what we're dealing with, it would be interesting if we could find out the time and place(s) where we can expect the type of dress worn by the Gemini to emerge. Since this is only about the dress, I decided to make a separate thread for man and woman. It doesn't matter who is wearing it: man with woman, man on horse, man in battle... We're interested in the type of dress by itself.
  
  This approach is valid because, as other members on the forum have pointed out, dress evolves separately from other image factors, especially during medieval times.
  
  Now those who have studied medieval wardrobe to some extent can probably say something like "these clothes are typical for much of the 14th-15th century all over Europe", but this broad statement obviously won't help us much. We'll have to dig into the details. What was important enough to include in the drawing? Are there perhaps minor variations in style that could point us to a more specific region or time?
  
  With subjects like these it is difficult to exclude personal impression, so just to help us sift through the available materia I propose to make use of a set of filters wich will allow us to attach a "score" to each individual piece of clothing. It is not the intention to find an image with a 100% score. If our best matches turn out to be only around 50%, that's perfectly fine. Each medieval drawing is unique, so finding a 100% match is not required. We're looking for tendencies.
  
  I propose the following checks for the male clothing, but these should be discussed beforehand. I have doubted to include color, but then decided that it should be included since it might be part of regional or temporal preference, for all we know. And it's only one factor of many.
  
     
  
  Houppelande: 
  

  1. Belted
     
  2. Length: between knees and ankles (?)
     
  3. Lobed bottom (wavy)
     
  4. Vertical lines in body (folds, plaits...)
     
  5. Neck collar
     
  6. Sleeve collars
     
  7. Sleeves till wrist
     
  8. Sleeves fitting/narrow at wrist
     
  9. No overcoat
     
  10. Green
      

  Hat:
  

  1. Wider than head
     
  2. Shaped like flat cylinder
     
  3. Nothing on top
     
  4. Nothing hanging down
     
  5. Green
     

  Boots:
  

  1. Separate from hose
     
  2. Visible laces
     
  3. About ankle height or a bit higher
     
  4. Tip relatively rounded
     
  5. Same color as hose
     

  This gives 10,5,5 points to check individual pieces of clothing and 20 for an entire ensemble. It's likely that I got some things wrong or missed something important, so the list should be discussed before starting (although it can always be adjusted afterwards if necessary).

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  -JKP- > 21-09-2018, 12:37 PM

  I suspect that the lines in the skirt indicate a pleated garment, although it can be hard to tell in small drawings which ones had pleats and which ones had regular folds. Pleats had a sharper definition than folds, in fact, sometimes the pleats were actually stitched to maintain the shape.
  
  
  One of the key things I noticed about his tunic is that it is narrow at the wrists and wide at the elbows. Only a minority of tunics are drawn this way (I excluded ones where there are two layers of garments shown). I posted examples You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but I have quite a few more (didn't want to clutter the blog and they are basically variations of the same basic styles illustrated, except for a few that I have found since).
  
  Also, the double line to define the collar and sometimes the sleeves (depending on the character) seems to be fairly specific to the VMS illustrator and not especially common. Note also that the VMS collar band is frequently left unpainted.
  
  
  And, of course, the laces. Not common at all on zodiac figures or elsewhere.

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  Koen G > 21-09-2018, 12:52 PM

  I guess we can count both pleats and folds since we can't make up much out of the garment. What we can say is that the pleating extends below and above the belt, so it's not some hanging strips or the like.
  
  How should we classify the sleeves at the elbows? I find it hard to see whether they are baggy or not given the faulty anatomy underneath. Maybe I should change (8) to "Sleeves fitting at wrist, looser at elbows"?

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  -JKP- > 21-09-2018, 12:59 PM

  They're not as full as the sleeves on Sagittarius, but I think they MIGHT be intended to indicate wider sleeves at the elbow. I guess Gemini is harder to know for sure.

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  Koen G > 21-09-2018, 08:53 PM

  JKP I adjusted the list based on your comments. Sleeves width has been made less restrictive, we'll only consider fitting at wrist. I have als made the "vertical lines" less restrictive since we can't really be sure what's going on.
  
  Just as an example I'll suggest the guy on the left for the dress (his boots and hat are of a completely different type)
  
  
  Poésies
  Northeastern France, 1425-1430
  MS M.396. Fol. 110r
  
  

  1. Belted
     
  2. Length: between knees and ankles (?)
     
  3. Lobed bottom (wavy)
     
  4. Vertical lines in body (folds, plaits...)
     
  5. Neck collar
     
  6. Sleeve collars
     
  7. Sleeves till wrist
     
  8. Sleeves fitting/narrow at wrist
     
  9. No overcoat
     

  He maintains all properties but the colour, so based on these criteria he should be a decent example, at least worth a mark on the map and timeline we're trying to construct. The sleeves do remain a point of doubt for me, but it may be best to include both narrow and wide ones?

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  -JKP- > 22-09-2018, 01:04 AM

  It's difficult to determine the length of the garment. The VMS guy is short-statured. Look at the size of his head in proportion to the rest of his body.
  
  The tunic in your example to the left looks a little too fancy to me. I see the Gemini tunic as more similar to this one in Tacuinum Sanitatus (with allowances for the fact that VMS Gemini has much shorter legs and might even represent someone with dwarf stature):
  
     
  
  Or, if you want a longer tunic, since it's difficult to picture how the Gemini tunic would look on a taller-statured person, this one (the simple one on the left) from c. 1500 Flanders:
  
     

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  -JKP- > 22-09-2018, 01:36 AM

  This detail of a fantastic painting of the court of Mantua gives some genuine insight into how tunics were constructed, and how they were pleated (and how sleeves were finished).
  
  The hats are quite different from VMS hats, but look at the collars of the two men on the right, a simple lighter band (simple necklines are not as regional-specific as hats, but this gives a sense of how VMS neckbands might have looked).
  
  Note also the short-statured woman to their left (I don't think she's intended to represent a child). I posted a number of pictures of short-legged men on my blog.
  
  
  
  
  The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has quite a few tunics similar to VMS Sagittarius and a few like VMS Gemini (and the women have dresses with simple, modest necklines).
  
  Here is another interpretation of the simple neckband in a female dress (I post it to show that this detail, which shows up frequently in the VMS, occurs on both male and female garments):
  
  
  
  I'm not going to repost them all here, but the Gaston Phebus hunting scenes have numerous tunics like those in the VMS. It seems to have been "work" dress, practical dress—a basic design that could be fancied up with lace or high collars or better fabrics for those with more leisure time.

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  -JKP- > 22-09-2018, 02:01 AM

  This one from Ebersberg is more similar to Sagittarius than to Gemini (wide sleeves) but I include it because of the pleats/gathers, the hat, and the simple round necklines (the dress of the woman is the same style as some in Tacuinum Sanitatus):
  
     
  
  In V. Pal. Lat 1806, the "fili9 p'dig9" (prodigal son) is wearing a similar tunic, although it's hard to tell if it's a slightly raised collar rather than a simple band collar. In the same manuscript, there is a very good match for Sagittarius's tunic sleeves and hat (right):
  
             
  
  V. Pal Lat 871 has some too, as does Cod. Sang 646 and Sang 636.
  
  
  
  ..
  To me,  the Gemini and Sagittarius tunics seem to be variations of the same general style.
  
  Note that so far none of these examples has boot laces.
  
  Many of the Lauber studio tunics have high collars or cowls or extra details. The same is true of many of the English manuscripts but some of the English tapestries have similar tunics.
  
  
  If you want an example of a Hebrew manuscript with similar tunics, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the manuscript with the fantastic containers) has some.

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  Koen G > 22-09-2018, 03:58 AM

  Thanks, JKP, you really have a database of everything don't you? 
  
  I agree about the fancy dress. However, if a guy in a manuscript is wearing the 500 dollar version of our guy's 50 dollar shirt, we're still in the right area. Looking at your examples though, I really get the impression our tunic type is one with tight-ish sleeves overall.
  
  You know what's surprisingly hard to find? The way the dress bottom is drawn, with pronounced waves. I thought it would be really common but so far I've found only one parallel.
  
  Edit; your prodigal son example comes pretty close as well I see.

• RE: Parallels for dress: Gemini MALE

  DONJCH > 22-09-2018, 07:23 AM

  (21-09-2018, 08:53 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP I adjusted the list based on your comments. Sleeves width has been made less restrictive, we'll only consider fitting at wrist. I have als made the "vertical lines" less restrictive since we can't really be sure what's going on.
  
  Just as an example I'll suggest the guy on the left for the dress (his boots and hat are of a completely different type)
  
  
  Poésies
  Northeastern France, 1425-1430
  MS M.396. Fol. 110r
  
  

  1. Belted
     
  2. Length: between knees and ankles (?)
     
  3. Lobed bottom (wavy)
     
  4. Vertical lines in body (folds, plaits...)
     
  5. Neck collar
     
  6. Sleeve collars
     
  7. Sleeves till wrist
     
  8. Sleeves fitting/narrow at wrist
     
  9. No overcoat
     

  He maintains all properties but the colour, so based on these criteria he should be a decent example, at least worth a mark on the map and timeline we're trying to construct. The sleeves do remain a point of doubt for me, but it may be best to include both narrow and wide ones?

  
  Koen, this one also shows one distinctive feature Of the VMS drawing that is not on your list - the way the proportions are borked so that the belt appears to be slung around the upper thighs.
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