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  Koen G > 26-07-2018, 10:13 PM

  When I saw the image below it gave me an immediate sense of recognition. Architecturally it strongly resembles You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and there is also some resemblance to the kind of patterns on the "tubs" or "barrels".
  
  The scene in question is a baptism, though this sacrament appears to be absent from Q13. A quick look at the wiki for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. reveals that several types of earlier structures were repurposed for baptisms. So I don't know whether this bassin was specifically constructed for baptizing or if it used to be, for example, a bath house. Any thoughts?
  
     

• RE: f81r parallel

  -JKP- > 26-07-2018, 10:16 PM

  Wow, nice catch!
  
  I've searched for scalloped tubs, baptismal fonts, and scalloped bathing-resort architecture but didn't come close finding something as good as that.
  
  Origin "Italy or Hungary". Don't you just love it? This absolutely sums up the VMS. Whenever one finds something that really seems like something, it's either "origin uncertain" or origin "A or B or C". It's remarkably inscrutable, but I guess that's what makes it fun.

• RE: f81r parallel

  -JKP- > 26-07-2018, 10:32 PM

  Bath complex, Buda-Pest, published 1566. A very different feel from the medieval manuscript, but I thought I would post it for reference:
  
  

• RE: f81r parallel

  VViews > 26-07-2018, 11:32 PM

  Nice find Koen Gh!
  The lobate baptismal fonts are most often sunken (early middle ages) or on pedestals (later middle ages).
  I'd never seen one that is neither!
  
  Wedmore, UK, c. 1270:
  
  
  Treguier, France, 15th C
  

• RE: f81r parallel

  davidjackson > 27-07-2018, 04:26 PM

  The Orthodox monk in the corner appears to be paying rather too much attention to the scantily clad lady off to the side of him!
  
  This font isn't lobate, but it is 15th century (still in use, from Gloucester cathedral, UK)
  
  
  Meanwhile, this one in nearby Tewkesbury Abbey is lobate:
  
  
  You can still see its original wooden cover, one of the largest still extant in England. Fonts used to be covered over to prevent anyone from stealing the holy water within. This particular cover needs to be raised with a wooden pulley! The order to cover fonts came from the 13th century, IIRC.
  
  Afterthought: Although I've never seen a baptismal font big enough for three adults. They're not hot tubs, they're designed for dipping a baby's head in.

• RE: f81r parallel

  VViews > 27-07-2018, 05:10 PM

  (27-07-2018, 04:26 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Afterthought: Although I've never seen a baptismal font big enough for three adults. They're not hot tubs, they're designed for dipping a baby's head in.

  
  
  This is something I should have explained in more detail in my post.
  The reason the fonts changed from sunken to pedestalled was because of the changing practice of baptism, from immersing adults (which requires a full-size bath or tub, therefore, the preference for a large, often sunken font) to the generalization of the baptism of newborns, and just dipping the baby's head, which is much more conveniently done in a raised, smaller font.
  Here are some images of the sunken fonts. Because of changing ground levels, some of them now appear exposed rather than sunken:
  Turkey, 5thC:
  
  Tunisia, 6thC:
  
  
  Germany, 11thC:
  

• RE: f81r parallel

  VViews > 27-07-2018, 06:17 PM

  Further to my post above, I'll add that some congregations still practice adult immersion baptism, and thus require large baths.
  This ad actually boasts the tub's multiperson capacity:
  

• RE: f81r parallel

  -JKP- > 27-07-2018, 09:39 PM

  VViews, that style from Tunisia is completely new to me. Beautiful.

• RE: f81r parallel

  Koen G > 27-07-2018, 10:05 PM

  Thanks for the clarification, VVIews, that's quite illuminating. This ties in to the fluidity between bathing- and adult baptism architecture.
  I had come across the Tunis examples before, but in the context of this thread I see them in a new light. Really all of the "pool pages" pools tread a fine line between architectural and natural feature. 
  
  About the MS image I posted, the Morgan page is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 
  
  The image shows the apostle Bartholomew converting the Armenian king. Bartholomew "is said to have been martyred for having converted Polymius, the king of Armenia, to Christianity. Enraged by the monarch’s conversion, and fearing a Roman backlash, king Polymius’s brother, prince Astyages, ordered Bartholomew’s torture and execution, which Bartholomew courageously endured." (Wiki)
  
  In other accounts, Bartholomew travels to Turkey and India, and he's still big in Armenia. 
  
  One thing I find puzzling is the Morgan description: "Bologna, Italy, or Hungary". That's like... "golden retriever (dog) or horse".

• RE: f81r parallel

  -JKP- > 27-07-2018, 10:51 PM

  (27-07-2018, 10:05 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Really all of the "pool pages" pools tread a fine line between architectural and natural feature. 
  
  ...

  
  Considering that many of the "resort" spas started out as natural spas that were added to over time, I wonder if this might be the norm (in the middle ages) rather than the exception.
  
  It's tragic, actually, to see modern spas. Some are in beautiful natural cave environments and they have started adding concrete edges to everything. I have a word for this... "citycreep", a situation where people who grow up in urban environments impose their notions of order and cement and stone and edges and urbanization onto the natural world in places where the change serves no useful function and mars the landscape.
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