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• Tower with ramp or external staircase

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  DONJCH > 19-05-2018, 02:29 AM

  Koen, which VMS folio is this one?
  (I find it both amusing and a bit scary that you ALL seem to know exactly what this is without asking!)
  
  I just finished ploughing systematically through the entire imagery section and following all the links where possible. 
  
  There is quite a lot isn't there?
  
  If I may be a teensy bit critical - no links, dead links, private websites and one page that triggered my antivirus - all make the learning process harder than it needs to be.
  Yes I know I am a noob and should keep my trap shut (ducks).

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  -JKP- > 19-05-2018, 04:06 AM

  (19-05-2018, 02:29 AM)DONJCH Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Koen, which VMS folio is this one?
  (I find it both amusing and a bit scary that you ALL seem to know exactly what this is without asking!)
  
  ...

  
  
  Yeah, I guess our Voynich obsession is showing; I have most of the manuscript in my head. I even "look" at parts of it just before falling asleep.
  
  The tower is on the rosettes foldout.

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  Koen G > 19-05-2018, 06:14 AM

  Yeah it's on the large foldout, top right roundel.
  I started researching the MS two and a half years ago and still remember well how much it all was to take in, especially since everyone I talked to was like a living encyclopedia. But you'll get there, and don't hesitate to ask when something is unclear!

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  bi3mw > 19-05-2018, 11:43 AM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.are some informations about this kind of map(s).
  
  

  Quote:... The most closely related or influenced maps of the T-O’s are those that accompany manuscripts of Sallust’s works and may have originally been drawn to illustrate a passage from Sallust’s De bello Jugurthino ( note:  Jugurthine War ) ....

  
  
  Ladders or ramps were often illustrated based on the template by Konrad Kyeser. The roof in this example looks similar to that in the VMS.
  
  
  
  Kyeser, Conradus, Bellifortis, Elsaß, [arround 1460] Ms. germ. qu. 15, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  Koen G > 25-05-2018, 09:14 PM

  I suspect the "Jerusalem with ramp" might derive from something like this:
  
  
  "City of Jerusalem, to the left of the stairs is King David, to right the queen - the personification of Zion. Doeg the Edomite, telling King Saul about David. Psalms 50-51, Chludov Psalter, Byzantine, 9th century, Moscow, Historical Museum MS 129"

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  Searcher > 27-05-2018, 10:34 PM

  Hi!
  If it is really a ladder at the tower, this fragment can be a symbolic picture of the Tower of Babel. It was frequently depicted with a ladder or a few ladders in manuscripts. Look You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In principle, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may represent the two great humanity's fails after the expulsion from the garden of Eden: the Flood and the destroy of the Tower of Babel, described in the Biblical myths of the Book of Genesis (similarly to the top part of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the MS Bodley 263, Fall of princes, 15 c.)
  
  As a variant.

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  DONJCH > 02-06-2018, 12:37 AM

  (19-05-2018, 06:14 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yeah it's on the large foldout, top right roundel.
  I started researching the MS two and a half years ago and still remember well how much it all was to take in, especially since everyone I talked to was like a living encyclopedia. But you'll get there, and don't hesitate to ask when something is unclear!

  
  Koen, JKP, thank you both for your answers!

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  DONJCH > 05-06-2018, 06:23 AM

  
  Koen,
  
  I don't know if you guys have seen this map: "Yedikule and İmrahor Mosque from map of Constantinople by Piri Reis (1521)"
  
  
  I got there by a roundabout route after reading your blog post re the monastery of St John Prodromas at Petra.
  In short, this is not it, but the arrangement of the towers at the tip and at the wall corners seems familiar!
  Do I see, with a magnifier, swallowtail merlons on the near wall of the compound?!
  
  I was hoping to find your building with a ramp or ladder some where but no luck so this is just reporting negative results and testing means of posting images.
  
  (Credit I believe is due to Diane for linking Constantinople to this rosette, Details are now hidden of course.)

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  Koen G > 05-06-2018, 11:29 AM

  The thing with maps of Constantinople is that the city changed drastically after it fell to the Turks in 1453. The only maps we have which predate the conquest are various versions of one by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I once wrote a bit about that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., second part of the post.
  
  (By the way, note the difference between Pera, the part of the city across the water, and Petra, a part of the city proper - I had them mentally conflated initially).

• RE: Tower with ramp or external staircase

  DONJCH > 05-06-2018, 04:31 PM

  (05-06-2018, 11:29 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The thing with maps of Constantinople is that the city changed drastically after it fell to the Turks in 1453. The only maps we have which predate the conquest are various versions of one by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I once wrote a bit about that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., second part of the post.
  
  (By the way, note the difference between Pera, the part of the city across the water, and Petra, a part of the city proper - I had them mentally conflated initially)

  Agreed, the thing about Constantinople is that it"s all so Byzantine!
  
  There are 8 St John Prodromas churches, for instance, and even experts mess up the ID sometimes.
  
  There are problems with the maps too and also with the multiple rebuildings in this key Golden Gate region, even immediately before the conquest.
  
  Do we discuss Constantinople further or am I off topic? VMS imagery seems not to fit into neat boxes, but your thread, your choice!
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