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• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 13-02-2018, 08:23 AM

  Coned towers are quite different from saddlebacks. Take a look at the roofs of medieval Swiss buildings. They have lots of saddlebacks.
  
  Once you get familiar with saddlebacks, I think you'll see the central tower in the VMS drawing is intended as a saddleback with two flags (pointing outward).
  
  
  The Prague "Powder Tower" where Rudolf's alchemists were staying has a saddleback at the top level, but it has globes rather than flags. Go a little farther west to see saddlebacks with flags rather than globes.
  
  
  There's a thread with some examples here:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Koen G > 13-02-2018, 08:35 AM

  Morten, I noticed you've started to derail other threads with talk about your theories. Please keep discussion of your theory limited to this thread.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 15-02-2018, 06:01 AM

  (13-02-2018, 08:23 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Coned towers are quite different from saddlebacks. Take a look at the roofs of medieval Swiss buildings. They have lots of saddlebacks.
  
  Once you get familiar with saddlebacks, I think you'll see the central tower in the VMS drawing is intended as a saddleback with two flags (pointing outward).
  
  
  The Prague "Powder Tower" where Rudolf's alchemists were staying has a saddleback at the top level, but it has globes rather than flags. Go a little farther west to see saddlebacks with flags rather than globes.
  
  
  There's a thread with some examples here:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  It seems the notion that the VMS was written in northern Italy is entirely based on M-shaped merlons (military defenses on top of the castle walls) that are depicted on the castle drawing. These merlons resemble swallowtail merlons that were wildly popular in northern Italy as an ornamental design in the 15th century and therefore scholars conclude that is where the VMS was written. The VMS castle also depicts a conical or saddleback tower that were not popular in northern Italy. Only a few instances of cones can be detected and, so far, no saddlebacks, but the scholars wish to ignore this in favor of the merlons.
  
  This here is the VMS castle depiction:
  
  
  
  Granted that, pictorially, women play a dominate role in the VMS, the VMS could have been compiled by Cathars (where women had equal rights to the point of being literate) rather than by Catholics (where women were severely repressed during medieval times). This means that the depicted castle (unidentified to date with anything in Italy or elsewhere) might be a Cathar fortress, especially the one at Montségur, the last stronghold of the Cathars. Cathar castles in southwestern France, but not so much Italian castles, were often built on mountain tops with steep slopes, which the VMS drawing seems to indicate.
  
  An edifice at Montségur, home to a community of Cathar women at the end of the 12th century, was newly rebuilt (and made defensible) after 1204 and then completely destroyed, dismantled stone by stone (which could explain why no one is able to identify the VMS castle), in 1244. As far as castles go, it had a very short life. All Cathar literature and drawings were destroyed by the Inquisition. Crusader accounts of the conquest provide some details (for example, we know it had a tower), but apparently (and I presume someone has looked into this) no description of its merlons. As a new construction, Montségur might not have necessarily resembled older edifices in the region. The architects of Montségur could have come from anywhere highlighted on this map:
  
  
  
  
  By this map, the saddleback design may have originated in northern Europe, and perhaps the M-shape merlons in Italy, but the merlon design is not so unique that it could not have simply been imagined by artistic-minded females.
  
  What I find the most puzzling about the VMS drawing is a doorway shown on the opposite side of the fortress from the tower. As far as I can determine, medieval castles in general built a tower on top of the entrance. The reason is obvious: it was far easier for invaders to break through the door than to break through a stone wall, so from the tower the defenders could drop stones and boiling oil or whatever down upon the would-be invaders.
  
  Uniquely for Montségur, however, an indefensible doorway on the opposite side makes sense. It seems this fortress shared the mountain top with a village outside its walls, and the village was itself defended by walls on top of vertical slopes. On the same page, and just to the left of its Montségur drawing, the VMS depicts some of the village houses:
  
  
  
  As you can see, these houses are built on a steep slope (which, if Montségur, would quickly descend into a vertical drop).
  
  Note that the M-shaped merlons are most readily distinguished on the village side of the fortress. It is unclear if the merlons on the other side (especially to the left of the tower), where real fighting was expected, are also M-shaped (at higher resolution, some of them look like normal merlons). Typically, I believe, archers would hide while loading their arrows, then come out briefly into the opening to fire, then hide again, but the V drop might expose their head to attack, making the M shape not particularly suitable for real combat but, with some curvature added, it could serve quite well as ornaments in Italy, especially for Italian Cathars who wanted to remember or honor their comrades who died at Montségur.
  
  The Morten St. George Theory maintains that the VMS was compiled by Cathar women during the 13th century and then a copy of their writings (the current VMS) was made during the 15th century. If anyone can identify anything European that definitely postdates 1244, I’d like to hear about it. Thanks.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 15-02-2018, 06:48 AM

  1. I do not have a notion that the VMS was created in Northern Italy. I don't know where it was created.
  
  2. Swallowtail merlons were not ornamental in the 15th century, they were political, just like national flags and coats of arms are political. They were not all in northern Italy, but they were almost entirely there except for a few exceptions. If you want to understand swallowtail merlons, look up the Ghibellines and the Guelfs (they were Germans with Italianized names). There were deep divisions between those who supported the papacy and those who supported the Holy Roman Empire.
  
  3. Just because there are swallowtail merlons on the rosettes page doesn't mean it was made there, but it DOES mean that the person who drew them was familiar with them (or whoever instructed the illustrator was familiar with them).

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Koen G > 15-02-2018, 07:45 AM

  Additionally there are various manuscripts where this style of battlements is used randomly, whether the castle had them or not. In that case, familiarity with the type is all we can assume.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 15-02-2018, 07:56 AM

  (15-02-2018, 07:45 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Additionally there are various manuscripts where this style of battlements is used randomly, whether the castle had them or not. In that case, familiarity with the type is all we can assume.

  
  I'm not denying that the VMS could be depicting swallowtails or saddlebacks. I'm only saying that you can't claim this means that the VMS was written in Italy or Switzerland and not in Cathar country because we don't know what the Cathar edifices looked like. Not only Montségur, all their edifices were destroyed by the Crusaders. Carcassonne was spared only because the Cathars had already been expelled.
  
  Catharism was a religion, not a region or nationality. Though most of the Cathars lived in southern France, smaller numbers of converts could be found in several countries, and some of them may have found their way to southern France taking their architectural ideas with them.
  
  There were reports that Cathar perfecti resided in a couple of chateaus prior to being forced to Montsegur, their last place of refuge. Regarding the VMS drawing of an edifice with three saddleback towers, it might be one of those chateaus.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 15-02-2018, 08:04 AM

  (15-02-2018, 07:56 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not denying that the VMS could be depicting swallowtails or saddlebacks. I'm only saying that you can't claim this means that the VMS was written in Italy or Switzerland and not in Cathar country because we don't know what the Cathar edifices looked like. Not only Montségur, all their edifices were destroyed by the Crusaders. Carcassonne was spared only because the Cathars had already been expelled.

  
  
  I don't see anybody claiming that in response to ANY of your messages and I'm tired of people putting words in other people's mouths. If it's a map, it might be territory that someone passed through, it doesn't mean it was written there. If it has Ghibelline merlons, it might be something someone heard about—it doesn't mean it was written there.
  
  If someone claims it was written in Italy or Switzerland outside of the forum, go discuss it with them there, but don't bring straw men into the argument here because it makes it look like you are inventing detractors who don't exist. Most people on the forum, including me, have lists of possibilities, not hard and fast theories and if they do have a specific theory, then name them by name, so they can respond, rather than painting us all with the same brush and making it look like we have theories that we DON'T have.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 15-02-2018, 07:45 PM

  (15-02-2018, 08:04 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (15-02-2018, 07:56 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm not denying that the VMS could be depicting swallowtails or saddlebacks. I'm only saying that you can't claim this means that the VMS was written in Italy or Switzerland and not in Cathar country because we don't know what the Cathar edifices looked like. Not only Montségur, all their edifices were destroyed by the Crusaders. Carcassonne was spared only because the Cathars had already been expelled.

  
  
  I don't see anybody claiming that in response to ANY of your messages and I'm tired of people putting words in other people's mouths. If it's a map, it might be territory that someone passed through, it doesn't mean it was written there. If it has Ghibelline merlons, it might be something someone heard about—it doesn't mean it was written there.
  
  If someone claims it was written in Italy or Switzerland outside of the forum, go discuss it with them there, but don't bring straw men into the argument here because it makes it look like you are inventing detractors who don't exist. Most people on the forum, including me, have lists of possibilities, not hard and fast theories and if they do have a specific theory, then name them by name, so they can respond, rather than painting us all with the same brush and making it look like we have theories that we DON'T have.

  
  From the very beginning I have encountered nothing but extreme antagonism to my theory that the VMS was written by Cathars who escaped religious persecution by fleeing to the New World. My suggestion of a marsh deer was rejected in favor of a goat, but no explanation of why it looks more like a goat than a deer was given.
  
  For my suggestion that the biological section could be depicting the Louisiana swamps, it was noted that a plant that looks like the Louisiana swamp plant can be found in Asia, and that a depiction of a fish that looks like the alligator gar was found in a medieval law book. Sure sounds like an effort to keep authorship in the Old World.
  
  For my suggestion that the VMS castle could be Montségur, it was noted that the merlons are found in Italy and that saddlebacks are found in Switzerland (implying though not claiming that VMS could have been written in those places), but no alternative description of what Montségur looked like was provided.
  
  I was told that people here helped to write the Wikipedia article on the VMS, but I was not told who, in specific, was pointing the finger at northern Italy in the second sentence of that article. Consequently, I do not to whom I should direct further inquiry.
  
  I am not seeking antagonism with you guys but only cooperation to help uncover the truth about the VMS. My goal is only the truth whether that be my theories or the findings of someone else. In that regard, it would be helpful if we all, including me, try to be as open-minded as possible.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 15-02-2018, 09:46 PM

  Morten, you missed my point...
  
  Many of my ideas are also met with doubt and antagonism, as are those of many others (get used to it), but that has nothing to do with what I posted...
  
  
  When you talk about OTHER PEOPLE'S work, please do not generalize.
  
  Researchers in the Voynich community have a great diversity of opinions. If you are refuting someone's idea that it was created in northern Italy, for example, you must say WHO you are talking about rather than generalizing, as you have been doing, because we do NOT all hold the same opinions. There have been at least a dozen different places suggested as possible origins for the VMS (and that's not counting the ones that haven't been written up yet), northern Italy is only one suggestion out of many.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 16-02-2018, 05:34 PM

  (15-02-2018, 09:46 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, you missed my point...
  
  Many of my ideas are also met with doubt and antagonism, as are those of many others (get used to it), but that has nothing to do with what I posted...
  
  
  When you talk about OTHER PEOPLE'S work, please do not generalize.
  
  Researchers in the Voynich community have a great diversity of opinions. If you are refuting someone's idea that it was created in northern Italy, for example, you must say WHO you are talking about rather than generalizing, as you have been doing, because we do NOT all hold the same opinions. There have been at least a dozen different places suggested as possible origins for the VMS (and that's not counting the ones that haven't been written up yet), northern Italy is only one suggestion out of many.

  
  I started clicking on a list of VMS websites a few days ago and quickly found one of the theories you are talking about. It was a website apparently created by a lady from India (keep in mind that I have a faulty memory these days) who claimed to have solved the origins of the VMS. She said it was written in India because she found one of the VMS plants in her backyard. As proof, she provided, side by side, the VMS drawing and a photo of her backyard plant. Indeed, the leaves did look similar, perhaps not so much the flower.
  
  What about the other plants, the castle, the Western astrology, the nude white women, and the green swamp water? A good theory has to take into account everything that is depicted in the VMS, not just a few of the things.
  
  Unless you can find evidence that was impossible for medieval ships to cross the Atlantic, you cannot claim that the sunflower, the swamp lily, a few dozen additional plants, and the green water were all the product of someone's imagination in the Old World. It would be a miracle if the human imagination produced even a single accurate result let alone a multiplicity of them.
  
  So far, I have encountered nothing that would be inconsistent with the VMS having been authored by Cathars in the New World during the 13th century. The big mystery is how and when did their deerskin book get back to the Old World and where in the Old World was it copied on to cow parchment around the year 1420. Was the encryption applied by the Cathars or at the time of copying? The Inquisition was still active in 1420, so the copying was most likely done inside a Jewish community in Catalonia, Provence, Morocco, Egypt, or the Holy Land.
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