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Morten St George Theory
- Morten St George Theory
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RE: Morten St George Theory
davidjackson > 16-02-2018, 08:41 PM
Quote:Unless you can find evidence that was impossible for medieval ships to cross the Atlantic
It is most probable that the Vikings were crossing over the Atlantic more than four hundred years before Columbus.
However, they were only able to travel via the lengthy north Atlantic route (Faroes / Iceland / Greenland / Canada). This would have ruled out constant travel and commerce, and there was no reason for them to have travelled down to central / south America (a very long journey with no possible recompense).
Why could they not directly cross over from Europe to America? Firstly, political reasons - they had no base off north Africa to start the voyage (the Spanish only managed it because they had colonies in the Canary Isles to resupply the ships).
Secondly, the small ships of the time were simply unable to carry sufficient supplies to reach the coast.
Until there was a mixture of supply bases and large enough ships, it was simply impossible to use the north African Atlantic currents to sail to central America (and use the winds to get back).
A further consideration - had the Vikings, or other Europeans pre-15th century, met with American natives, they would have fought on an equal basis. It was only gunpowder, and Spanish arms forged in the Moorish conflicts, that allowed Europeans to dominate when they eventually arrived. A Viking ship coming from Greenland further south would have no defense against attack, and no real ability to obtain an economic advantage from the exploration. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 16-02-2018, 09:36 PM
The Basques were probably also crossing the Atlantic before Columbus. It's in their oral history.
Both the Viking and Basque whalers were stopping on Iceland and venturing far into the Arctic. What they did in those small ships is incredible by today's standards, and anyone who ventures far enough into the Arctic is going to touch Greenland from time to time. Once you get to Greenland, the distance to the North American coast is a short hop compared to the trip from Norway or the Pyrenees to Iceland.
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As for the "swamp water", medieval manuscripts are full of green water, as are thousands of natural spas all over Europe. A huge number of them have naturally green water. Glacier run-off water is often green, even when it gets all the way to the bottom of the mountain. Some of the natural thermal areas are also green.
And the sunflower? Africa is the birthplace of a huge proportion of the world's asters. It is FULL of them, all sizes and colors. Look up Gerbera (which originated in Africa):
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If you were to get up close and personal with some of the fancier Gerbera flowers and draw them in minute detail, some would come out like the VMS flowers. This is also true of some of the big Russian asters that resemble sunflowers. There are many possible explanations for the two plants that look like sunflowers in the VMS. The VMS is full of asters, so there's nothing surprising about finding two drawings of asters that are large and detailed. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
davidjackson > 16-02-2018, 10:01 PM
Quote:Both the Viking and Basque whalers were stopping on Iceland
Ah, the Basques, I forget about them. Their influence is noted in Iceland - the Icelanders recently over-turned an ancient law which allowed any Basque to be killed on sight. The 16th century law was enacted due to the amount of fish the blighters were stealing from Icelandic waters, and it was never taken off the books until.... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
(I recently took my Spanish partner there - she wasn't killed. The joke "another good plan foiled" is getting old). -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 16-02-2018, 11:13 PM
LOL!!
David, I didn't know about the Icelandic law!
I did know that the medieval Basques spent enough time on Iceland to learn a bit of Icelandic (must have been before the law was enacted).
I also found out recently that there's quite a bit of Irish DNA in the Icelandic maternal line. It appears that the Vikings (mostly Norwegians and Danes) who settled in Iceland stopped off in Ireland to do a bit of "shopping" before continuing on to Iceland. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 17-02-2018, 02:07 AM
(16-02-2018, 08:41 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Unless you can find evidence that was impossible for medieval ships to cross the Atlantic
It is most probable that the Vikings were crossing over the Atlantic more than four hundred years before Columbus.
However, they were only able to travel via the lengthy north Atlantic route (Faroes / Iceland / Greenland / Canada). This would have ruled out constant travel and commerce, and there was no reason for them to have travelled down to central / south America (a very long journey with no possible recompense).
Why could they not directly cross over from Europe to America? Firstly, political reasons - they had no base off north Africa to start the voyage (the Spanish only managed it because they had colonies in the Canary Isles to resupply the ships).
Secondly, the small ships of the time were simply unable to carry sufficient supplies to reach the coast.
Until there was a mixture of supply bases and large enough ships, it was simply impossible to use the north African Atlantic currents to sail to central America (and use the winds to get back).
A further consideration - had the Vikings, or other Europeans pre-15th century, met with American natives, they would have fought on an equal basis. It was only gunpowder, and Spanish arms forged in the Moorish conflicts, that allowed Europeans to dominate when they eventually arrived. A Viking ship coming from Greenland further south would have no defense against attack, and no real ability to obtain an economic advantage from the exploration.
I see it stated that "Just about anything that floats can cross the Atlantic."
It is reported, however, that sail-powered boats were better suited for crossing the Atlantic than oar-powered boats, i.e. the Vikings.
I searched "medieval ships" on Google images and saw some that compare favorably with what Columbus had. Looks like plenty of room for a small number of Cathars and lots of water. It took Columbus just 37 days to cross the Atlantic.
On top of Montségur mountain, the Cathars held out against an invading army of 10,000 for 10 months before succumbing. Apparently, the Cathars learned how to survive on a minimal amount of food and water.
Boat size might not be critical. In the smallest of boats, during the same epoch, the Polynesians were able to cross vast distances in the Pacific Ocean.
With the currents less favorable, getting back to the Old World would be another matter, especially if their ship had begun to decay. My original theory had the VMS returning to Europe in the late 16th century, but cow protein forces a return 200 or more years earlier.
Unlike the Spanish, who went to the New World to kill and exploit, the Cathars were a peace-loving people. They probably would have had little or no conflict with the natives in the swamps. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 17-02-2018, 02:46 AM
Quote:Morten St George: It is reported, however, that sail-powered boats were better suited for crossing the Atlantic than oar-powered boats, i.e. the Vikings.
The Vikings had sails and oars. They weren't just expert ship builders, they were expert at embroidery and weaving at a very early time period. Very long strips of fabric were woven and them put together to create large sails.
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I haven't looked into how early they started adding sails, but the Danes own Greenland for a reason... the Vikings explored and then colonized it very early on.
Now look at the distance from Denmark to Greenland compared to the distance from Greenland to the New World. If they could get from Europe to Greenland, the distance from Greenland to Labrador was trivial in comparison and the Basque whalers sailed alongside many of the Viking whaling ships, so they most likely had been there too.
Their boats/ships generally fall into categories... there were the fishing and whaling fleets, the exploration/pillaging/get-into-Valhalla fleets, and the ships that were full of colonists. England was colonized by wave after wave of Scandinavians. Dublin was founded c. 8th century by Viking raiders and ruled by them for the next two centuries. The Angles were a southern Danish tribe. If you look at Denmark's geography, you will see that it is comprised of thousands of islands. It's not surprising they were early developers of sailing technology.
Quote:Morten: Boat size might not be critical. In the smallest of boats, during the same epoch, the Polynesians were able to cross vast distances in the Pacific Ocean.
Yes. Part of the journey was island-hopping, but there were nevertheless vast distances and it's an astonishing achievement. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 17-02-2018, 03:29 AM
(16-02-2018, 09:36 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Basques were probably also crossing the Atlantic before Columbus. It's in their oral history.
Both the Viking and Basque whalers were stopping on Iceland and venturing far into the Arctic. What they did in those small ships is incredible by today's standards, and anyone who ventures far enough into the Arctic is going to touch Greenland from time to time. Once you get to Greenland, the distance to the North American coast is a short hop compared to the trip from Norway or the Pyrenees to Iceland.
-----------------------
As for the "swamp water", medieval manuscripts are full of green water, as are thousands of natural spas all over Europe. A huge number of them have naturally green water. Glacier run-off water is often green, even when it gets all the way to the bottom of the mountain. Some of the natural thermal areas are also green.
And the sunflower? Africa is the birthplace of a huge proportion of the world's asters. It is FULL of them, all sizes and colors. Look up Gerbera (which originated in Africa):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If you were to get up close and personal with some of the fancier Gerbera flowers and draw them in minute detail, some would come out like the VMS flowers. This is also true of some of the big Russian asters that resemble sunflowers. There are many possible explanations for the two plants that look like sunflowers in the VMS. The VMS is full of asters, so there's nothing surprising about finding two drawings of asters that are large and detailed.
It's interesting that the Basques were a seafaring people during the Middle Ages. Basque Country isn't all that far from Montségur on the other side of the Pyrenees. During the Albigensian Crusade, the Crown of Aragon (even closer to Basque Country) fought on the side of the Cathars.
Regarding the green water, you just don't get it:
![[Image: mg-voynich-swamp-scene.jpg]](http://mortenstgeorge.info/mg-voynich-swamp-scene.jpg)
Counterbalancing the hybrid woman/fish (mermaid), we see a hybrid predator (spotted jaguar with alligator head). Over to the right, there's another predator in the water, who, having just killed the deer in the corner, terrifies the pony which symbolizes the sweet innocence of the Cathar women. The gals are clearly scared of these swamp predators.
This is a scene from the American swamps, not a European thermal bath!
And please, all the gals are stark naked, so you stand little chance of convincing me that this is glacier water.
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RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 17-02-2018, 03:48 AM
Quote:Morten St George: This is a scene from the American swamps, not a European thermal bath!
I've never identified this particular pool scene as a bathing scene, and I don't think other researchers have either.
Medieval manuscripts are full of pictures of monsters, beasts, and other crittery things in water. I don't see why this has to be Florida, when it could be anywhere that mythical beasts exist.
By the way, the lowest critter, second from the right, is drawn in the same style as the drawings of one of the illustrators from the Diepoldt Lauber studio. It's not quite as facile, not quite as expert, but it's drawn the same way. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 17-02-2018, 07:06 AM
(17-02-2018, 03:48 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:Morten St George: This is a scene from the American swamps, not a European thermal bath!
I've never identified this particular pool scene as a bathing scene, and I don't think other researchers have either.
Medieval manuscripts are full of pictures of monsters, beasts, and other crittery things in water. I don't see why this has to be Florida, when it could be anywhere that mythical beasts exist.
By the way, the lowest critter, second from the right, is drawn in the same style as the drawings of one of the illustrators from the Diepoldt Lauber studio. It's not quite as facile, not quite as expert, but it's drawn the same way.
Oh, I assumed that "thermal areas" referred to thermal baths because, in most of the drawings, these gals are clearly bathing, so doesn't that have to be the idea?
Beyond the predator animals, there are other scenes supporting the concept of swamp life, such as the collection of rain water, washing off the silt, floating on their backs on top of the swamp lilies, sleeping in a tree hut, using a stick to measure the depth of the water so as not to step into a hole, or whatever.
I never said Florida. The trees here don't look high enough and it's also doubtful that the medieval reach of the spotted jaguar came this far east. I was thinking closer to Louisiana on the north side of the Gulf of Mexico.
Then again, we don't know what some of these places looked like seven hundred years ago. I saw a medieval weather map indicating that the temperature around the Gulf was hotter back then than it is today. The fact that the gals are running around naked implies a warmer climate than what it normally found in Europe.
The Cathar women were clearly educated and familiar with all the fairy tales. They put a lot of imagination into their drawings but these still reflect the reality of swamp life.
I'm not sure which critter you were referring to as second from the right. If it's the hybrid spotted jaguar / alligator, does the Diebold Lauber drawing show the spots?
It seems Diebold Lauber postdates the VMS, so what point are you trying to make? -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 17-02-2018, 08:18 AM
There's actually very few figures who are "clearly bathing". I'd describe most of them as standing in shallow water. Almost none of the women do things that would be expected of bathers, like scrubbing part of the body, washing hair, filling vessels for rincing, using a towel....
There is, however, a similarity of composition with the Balneis tradition, as has been observed early on. Marco posted good examples here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
The Balneis does not offer a clear-cut solution for the VM, but it does enough to obliterate your theory. I suggest you check it out.