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Morten St George Theory
- Morten St George Theory
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 31-03-2019, 06:48 AM
(31-03-2019, 05:05 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are plants in Europe similar to corn. Around the time you claim the Cathars went to the New World, corn had smaller cobs, not big ones, they bred them bigger. I don't know how much the Spanish had to do with breeding it bigger or if it was done entirely by the natives, but it looked more like grain in the earlier days.
Though there may have been a depiction of a cob on one of the missing pages, the VMS as we have it does not display any cob, so we do not know from the VMS what the Mexican cob looked like in the late Middle Ages. The large cob depiction that I posted was published in 1597.
I have a question: Do the herbals of medieval Europe include fantasy plants like the VMS or do they primarily display plants that can be identified as real plants? This should help us to determine whether or not the VMS follows the western tradition in the field of herbals.
Currently, I view the herbal pages of the VMS only as a misdirection, to distract unwanted readers and steer them away from the sacred text that they wanted to protect. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 31-03-2019, 11:37 AM
(31-03-2019, 06:48 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I have a question: Do the herbals of medieval Europe include fantasy plants like the VMS or do they primarily display plants that can be identified as real plants? This should help us to determine whether or not the VMS follows the western tradition in the field of herbals.
Currently, I view the herbal pages of the VMS only as a misdirection, to distract unwanted readers and steer them away from the sacred text that they wanted to protect.
Medieval herbals include many plants that might be perceived as "fantasy" plants by those who are unfamiliar with medieval mnemonics and herbal traditions.
Many of those in "alchemical herbals" seem that way, but the more I study them, the more I find the strange fish roots and eyeballs in leaves are meaningful. For example, the fish roots generally turn out to be aquatic plants.
The only one that seems like it might be completely mythical is a specific version of lunaria (there are several lunarias, all of them real plants). The mythical lunaria is said to glow in the dark BUT even this MIGHT have been a real plant, perhaps one that is extinct. There is the possibility that there was a plant that had this capacity. There are aquatic plants and animals that have the capability to fluoresce. But, perhaps it was myth and it never existed. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 31-03-2019, 05:29 PM
(31-03-2019, 11:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The only one that seems like it might be completely mythical is a specific version of lunaria (there are several lunarias, all of them real plants). The mythical lunaria is said to glow in the dark BUT even this MIGHT have been a real plant, perhaps one that is extinct. There is the possibility that there was a plant that had this capacity. There are aquatic plants and animals that have the capability to fluoresce. But, perhaps it was myth and it never existed.
In medieval mystic literature, the original book that held the VMS prophecies glowed in the dark, ie. emitted light. By chanting the names of God in the presence of this book, the mystics were able to increase its luminosity, so presumably the book could hear as well or, at least, was sensitive to sound. Due to its light-emitting qualities, the mystics assumed that the book was divine revelation written in heaven itself, black fire on white fire drawn from the primordial light of the universe.
But whether there is any connection between that and what you say here, I have no idea. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
davidjackson > 31-03-2019, 06:18 PM
Quote:In medieval mystic literature, the original book that held the VMS prophecies glowed in the dark, ie. emitted light. By chanting the names of God in the presence of this book, the mystics were able to increase its luminosity, so presumably the book could hear as well or, at least, was sensitive to sound. Due to its light-emitting qualities, the mystics assumed that the book was divine revelation written in heaven itself, black fire on white fire drawn from the primordial light of the universe.
Question: ah, actually, never mind. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 31-03-2019, 06:38 PM
(31-03-2019, 05:29 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(31-03-2019, 11:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The only one that seems like it might be completely mythical is a specific version of lunaria (there are several lunarias, all of them real plants). The mythical lunaria is said to glow in the dark BUT even this MIGHT have been a real plant, perhaps one that is extinct. There is the possibility that there was a plant that had this capacity. There are aquatic plants and animals that have the capability to fluoresce. But, perhaps it was myth and it never existed.
In medieval mystic literature, the original book that held the VMS prophecies glowed in the dark, ie. emitted light. By chanting the names of God in the presence of this book, the mystics were able to increase its luminosity, so presumably the book could hear as well or, at least, was sensitive to sound. Due to its light-emitting qualities, the mystics assumed that the book was divine revelation written in heaven itself, black fire on white fire drawn from the primordial light of the universe.
But whether there is any connection between that and what you say here, I have no idea.
Can you give a link to this literature you speak of? -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 31-03-2019, 07:24 PM
[quote="Morten St. George" pid='25911' dateline='1553892765']
The flower on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a large, round, flat head which looks like it would turn to face the sun for nourishment. I did not originate the idea that it is a sunflower.
The flower on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was, many years ago, widely accepted as being a sunflower. In fact, back in the early days of VMS research (pre-radio carbon days), scholars who had dated the VMS to the 15th century or earlier were suddenly forced to change their mind.
[quote]
Have you found a plant native to Europe that resembles the sunflower? If so, please point me to a picture of it.
[/quote]
![[Image: 83126152-flower-elecampane-inula-heleniu...lower-.jpg]](https://previews.123rf.com/images/danlersk/danlersk1707/danlersk170700195/83126152-flower-elecampane-inula-helenium-yellow-flower-.jpg)
![[Image: Leucanthemum%2Bx%2Bsuperbum%2B%2527Real%...29.jpg.JPG]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fz3bFbh56C8/VnQTdZMHndI/AAAAAAAA3dM/1XGuikhFW9s/s1600/Leucanthemum%2Bx%2Bsuperbum%2B%2527Real%2BNeat%2BImproved%2527%2BBS%2B%25282014%2529.jpg.JPG)
Inula belenium, Leucanthemum sp.
![[Image: KennyWilliamson-5c4ce57746e0fb0001c0d9e7.jpg]](https://www.thespruce.com/thmb/o1DCY5Fqk5_PARyOWfr-vR0TKf4=/1210x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():format(webp)/KennyWilliamson-5c4ce57746e0fb0001c0d9e7.jpg)
Gerbera (both) (Africa)
I am sure there are other examples.
The way the very top is drawn on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. makes me think it could represent another shape entirely, though, things arent always exactly as drawn, the top could represent a bowl of porridge or somesuch.
I dont actually see sunflower seeds represented at all, they are not circles in any direction, and they are generally darker. Millet is circular, though. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 31-03-2019, 08:03 PM
The various millets etc in the Tacuina remain the best sunflowerbusters in my opinion. Confronted with these images, so influential and close in time to the VM's creation, I don't see how anyone, botanist or otherwise, could still hold on to New World claims based on the supposed sunflower.
And even if you want to stay with flowers, there are perfect Old World options as Linda illustrates. But I don't think this is necessary given the leaf structure and the granular nature of the head. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 31-03-2019, 10:06 PM
(31-03-2019, 06:38 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(31-03-2019, 05:29 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In medieval mystic literature, the original book that held the VMS prophecies glowed in the dark, ie. emitted light. By chanting the names of God in the presence of this book, the mystics were able to increase its luminosity, so presumably the book could hear as well or, at least, was sensitive to sound. Due to its light-emitting qualities, the mystics assumed that the book was divine revelation written in heaven itself, black fire on white fire drawn from the primordial light of the universe.
Can you give a link to this literature you speak of?
No, what I say there is based on research undertaken by me back in pre-Internet days, but you can find relevant information (I believe I refer to some of my sources) on a website that I attempted to write in French:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
When and if the code on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is broken with the help of the marginalia, this website could turn into an invaluable aid for cryptographers trying to decode the rest of quire 20. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 31-03-2019, 10:39 PM
(31-03-2019, 07:24 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am sure there are other examples.
The way the very top is drawn on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. makes me think it could represent another shape entirely, though, things arent always exactly as drawn, the top could represent a bowl of porridge or somesuch.
I dont actually see sunflower seeds represented at all, they are not circles in any direction, and they are generally darker. Millet is circular, though.
For my part, I was only relying on the professional opinion of alleged botanists who made an issue out of sunflowers being native to the Americas. Complain to them, not to me.
Regarding your African depictions, can you please tell us precisely where in Africa do we find both sunflowers and European settlers during the 15th century? Thanks. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 31-03-2019, 10:43 PM
Quote:Morten: For my part, I was only relying on the professional opinion of alleged botanists who made an issue out of sunflowers being native to the Americas. Complain to them, not to me.
Regarding your African depictions, can you please tell us precisely where in Africa do we find both sunflowers and European settlers during the 15th century? Thanks.
Morten, I think you missed the point...
1) There's no proof that there are any sunflower drawings in the VMS.
2) Plants that look like sunflowers exist in Europe and the Mediterranean (and other parts of Africa), so even if there are plants that resemble sunflowers in the VMS, they don't necessarily have to be sunflowers.
3) Professional botanists generally do NOT have any background in medieval iconography.
![[Image: macro-shot-of-young-flower-heads-gerbera...d503230186]](https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/macro-shot-of-young-flower-heads-gerbera-daisies-picture-id503230186)