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• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 03-03-2019, 02:16 AM

  (03-03-2019, 12:23 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've written five responses to this and I realize it's pointless. You only see the VMS through your theory-colored glasses.

  
  JP, I've been looking at your blog to try to see the VMS through your eyes and have just stumbled upon an interesting article about "swallowtail merlons, similar to those on the rosettes foldout in Beinecke 408. This architectural style was associated, in earlier centuries, with the Ghibellines, supporters of the Holy Roman Empire, who were at political odds with those who supported the pope in Rome."
  
  
  
  It seems those swallowtail merlons are one of the reasons much of academia has assumed that the VMS comes from Northern Italy where such merlons are found. I've been investigating these merlons and, so far, the earliest instance of them that I could find is Soncino Castle in Cremona province of Lombardy, which dates back to the 10th century. You see it here in this Wikimedia pic:
  
  
  
  Note that it has a lot in common with your pic: arches and vertical slits in the walls as well as the swallowtails.
  
  Here's what's new: I have found hard proof of a direct link between Cremona and Montségur:
  
  «««
  
  Raymond de NIORT.  Perfecta from Belesta.  Arrived clandestinely at Montsegur in October 1243 with a letter from the Cathars of Cremona in Italy.
  ...
  Jean REY.  From Saint-Paul-Cap-de-Joux. Courier.  Arrived at Montsegur on January 1, 1244, bearing a letters from the Cathars of Cremona.  Received consolamentum March 13.
  
  »»»
  
  Montségur underwent renovations and expansion not long before its destruction in 1244, so it is easy enough to imagine Italian influence on its architecture.
  
  Meanwhile, Soncino Castle itself was rebuilt in 1283, just 39 years after the fall of Montségur, so even a reverse influence is possible, for example, in solidarity with those who died at Montségur, the Italian Cathars could have adopted the Montségur swallowtails as a symbol of defiance against the pope.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 03-03-2019, 02:32 AM

  I agree with Koen that the tapestries are a good representation of the styles and particularly the hats.
  
  If you want to see them on a map, in relation to others in terms of date and geography, I included them on maps here in July 2017:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  The Gaston Phoebus hunting images also have quite a few tunics of the same style as the VMS zodiac symbols.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 03-03-2019, 04:04 AM

  (03-03-2019, 02:32 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree with Koen that the tapestries are a good representation of the styles and particularly the hats.
  
  If you want to see them on a map, in relation to others in terms of date and geography, I included them on maps here in July 2017:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The Gaston Phoebus hunting images also have quite a few tunics of the same style as the VMS zodiac symbols.

  
  Thanks JP. It becomes easy enough to appreciate the position of those who claim that the VMS is a forgery: the VMS is a maze of contradictions, simultaneously pointing us to different countries and different centuries.
  
  The Church of Rome viewed the Cathars as devil worshipers in possession of demonic literature, which explains why they created a Crusade to exterminate the Cathars and the Inquisition to track down and eliminate their literature. I think this could explain the VMS enigma: there is a huge gap in the historical record of medieval Europe.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 03-03-2019, 06:17 AM

  (03-03-2019, 02:16 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[pic of swallowtail merlons]
  
  Note that it has a lot in common with your pic: arches and vertical slits in the walls as well as the swallowtails.

  
  Morten, you have to be very careful. After the middle of the 15th century, swallowtail merlons became very popular, they had less of the political meaning than they had in earlier centuries.
  
  So what happened is that they spread to many other areas, and countless towers and castles were rebuilt or repaired with this style of merlon.
  
  And you're cherry-picking again. I'm glad you looked around the the merlons and found an example with many of them, but be careful not to draw conclusions or make assumptions based on a quick find. I spent YEARS trying to figure out where the structures with swallowtail merlons existed in the early medieval period. It takes a LONG LONG time to collect enough images and textual descriptions (mostly written in Latin) to understand them.
  
  You can only be absolutely sure a building had them in the early centuries if you can find very old maps or very old, reasonably accurate manuscripts that illustrated them. Otherwise there's quite a strong chance they've been added later. Some castles have been completely rebuilt, some have been extensively enlarged, and some have had the battlements and towers rebuilt in the newer styles.
  
  From the Wiki on Soncino castle, the one you illustrated:
  
  "In 1200 it was besieged several times by the armies of Milan and Brescia, and in 1283, after being destroyed by the attacks of those armies, the commune of Soncino decided to rebuild the castle. In 1312 the castle was occupied by the Cremonese army, and in 1391 by the Milanese army, using it during the war against the Venetian Republic. In the year 1426 new walls were added to raise the previous ones."
  
  It's possible the swallowtail merlons were added in 1426 when they raised the walls. They might even have been added in the 16th or 17th century when a lot of castles were remodeled or expanded.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 03-03-2019, 06:39 AM

  Here is a picture of Soncino castle from the air [pic courtesy of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]:
  
  
  
  Now look closely at how the bricks in the first story are a different color from the bricks in the second story. Now look at the very top part of the tower on the right under the merlons, where the bricks are much redder...
  
  
  That often means there has been construction with slightly different materials, sometimes at a different time period. It's possible that all that remains of the original castle is the first story (or less).
  
  .
  Maybe it had Ghibelline merlons at some point in its earlier history. They were more common in this region. But you cannot assume so from a modern photograph. You have to do quite a bit of research and sometimes there are no records to prove it one way or the other.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Koen G > 03-03-2019, 09:29 AM

  JKP the date on your sleeves map for the tapestry is still that of younger ones. The one that's most relevant for us fashion-wise is the Boar and Bear Hunt, which has been dated to the 1420's.
  
  If I recall correctly, they adjusted the dated based specifically on fashion, which shows how strong of an indicator this is considered.
  
  
  On the castles, I made out for myself that the task is too daunting to find a match. So many of them have been destroyed, altered or renovated without proper records. And the VM drawing is so small. I'm not even sure if they mean a castle or a walled city..

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 03-03-2019, 09:57 AM

  if

  (03-03-2019, 09:29 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP the date on your sleeves map for the tapestry is still that of younger ones. The one that's most relevant for us fashion-wise is the Boar and Bear Hunt, which has been dated to the 1420's.
  
  If I recall correctly, they adjusted the dated based specifically on fashion, which shows how strong of an indicator this is considered.

  
  Thanks for pointing this out. I have found quite a few manuscripts (and other media) whose date estimates have shifted since I first recorded them in my files (or blogged about them). It's a challenge to keep up with a constantly moving target, but it has to be that way. I'll have to carve out some time to add a postscript.
  
  
  

  Quote:On the castles, I made out for myself that the task is too daunting to find a match. So many of them have been destroyed, altered or renovated without proper records. And the VM drawing is so small. I'm not even sure if they mean a castle or a walled city..

  
  That's basically where I ended up too. I found that so many had been completely rebuilt or completely destroyed (and never rebuilt), that it's nearly impossible to get enough data to come to any conclusions.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 03-03-2019, 12:36 PM

  (03-03-2019, 06:17 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From the Wiki on Soncino castle, the one you illustrated:
  
  "In 1200 it was besieged several times by the armies of Milan and Brescia, and in 1283, after being destroyed by the attacks of those armies, the commune of Soncino decided to rebuild the castle. In 1312 the castle was occupied by the Cremonese army, and in 1391 by the Milanese army, using it during the war against the Venetian Republic. In the year 1426 new walls were added to raise the previous ones."
  
  It's possible the swallowtail merlons were added in 1426 when they raised the walls. They might even have been added in the 16th or 17th century when a lot of castles were remodeled or expanded.

  
  JP, For the purpose of our investigation, the timeline stops circa 1420, the carbon date of the VMS. Anything that happened after that is irrelevant.
  
  Supporters of the Northern Italy theory claim that the swallowtail merlons were in use by 1420. A while back, I checked out in google.it every named castle with those merlons that I could find in image searches. I was satisfied that at least some of those swallowtails were extant in the 14th century though I could not affirm that any of them predate the fall of Montségur in 1244.
  
  If, as you say, the swallowtails had religious or political significance, it would make sense to reinstate the swallowtails when rebuilding a destroyed castle.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 03-03-2019, 02:30 PM

  (03-03-2019, 09:29 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the castles, I made out for myself that the task is too daunting to find a match. So many of them have been destroyed, altered or renovated without proper records. And the VM drawing is so small. I'm not even sure if they mean a castle or a walled city..

  
  In southern France, damaged castles were often simply left as ruins, but in Italy there appears to have been a concerted effort to preserve old castles and reconstruct them when destroyed. It is significant that no one has been able to find the VMS castle in northern Italy.
  
  
  
  Am I the only person capable of seeing that this fortress as depicted is built on top of a mountain with vertical slopes?
  
  Montségur mountain is famous for its vertical slopes. That is why a hundred knights were able to hold out against an army of ten thousand for nine months. Note a water storage facility on the left and that might be a food storage facility on the right. Historical records refer to storage facilities and to a single besieged tower.
  
  Also note a doorway on the side opposite to the tower. Towers were normally built above the main entrance, so this doorway likely opens to the village that shared the mountaintop with the fortress. The village did not need walls because it was protected by the vertical slopes (again, all according to historical records).
  
  
  
  After the fall of the fortress, roughly two hundred Cathars were burned alive in a giant bonfire set up in a field below the fortress. The number of stars and glyphs in the depicted field sum up to roughly two hundred. Below the field the VMS might be depicting the flames of the bonfire.
  
  After the fall, the Cathar fortress was completely dismantled stone by stone, unfortunately leaving not even ruins that could be tied to the VMS drawing, but luckily we see enough to know that it's Montségur.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Paris > 03-03-2019, 03:17 PM

  Morten St. George,
  
  Are you sure that cathar castles had swallowtail merlons ?
  
  A few cathar castles have not been destroyed.
  I don't see any of these merlons on any of these castles ?
  
  Please, have a look on these pictures :
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  

  (03-03-2019, 02:30 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.After the fall, the Cathar fortress was completely dismantled stone by stone, unfortunately leaving not even ruins that could be tied to the VMS drawing, but luckily we see enough to know that it's Montségur.

  Montségur hasn't been destroyed completely.
  With documents, a scale model has been done.
  No swallowtail merlons.
  
     
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