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• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Linda > 02-03-2019, 03:47 PM

  (02-03-2019, 09:49 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (02-03-2019, 07:55 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No, i mean you said they migrated and wrote it then. On the vellum made of bison. Why would you want to test for bison protein if it is a copy of something made of bison?

  
  The Beinecke VMS was tested for protein against protein samples taken from many animals including animals like squirrels but did not include bison. The family Bovidae (cows) gave the best match but bison are also of the same family and very close to cows (they can even interbreed). The objective of a new test would be to determine if bison protein gives as good or better match than cow protein.
  
  We do not know on what type of material the initial writings were made. On f116v, the VMS depicts a marsh deer which could have provided parchment. The botanical and swamp sections of the VMS were obviously first written in the Americas. The astrology and deep text sections may have been brought to the Americas from Europe at the time of migration.

  
  So...Cathars wrote the original on whatever, whereever, in the 13th century. Then someone two hundred years later took their book to America to copy it onto bison? Are they the ones who slept in the swamp water and did baptisms or was it the Cathars, as you have explained previously? Are you saying there were two migrations? 
  
  When you update your theory you have to concern yourself with everything else that changes with it.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 02-03-2019, 07:29 PM

  (02-03-2019, 01:11 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my opinion the oldest of the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries (1420's) shows some figures which are among the closest in dress and character to the VM archer. That's why I think his type has to be seen as a "dandy hunter", some member of the court or other noble who put on their best clothes for some leisurely hunting. I'm not saying the VM figure is exactly that, but surely of the same general type.

  
  Thanks Koen G. The hat and tail on the top left does indeed look a lot like that of the VMS Sagittarius. However, before concluding that the VMS was compiled in 15th century England, one might want to establish a few more connections. The hat itself is similar to other hats seen in the astrology section only those do not have a tail. Could there be a motive for appending a fox tail when going hunting?
  
  In the meantime, I was wondering what you guys think of the Cathar queen depicted on f72v, the same page on which we find the 11mn quire number discussed earlier:
  
  
  
  Take notice of the puffed-up crown with a cross on top. A comprehensive account of royalty who converted to Catharism in the 13th century, along with depictions of their crowns (puffed-up with a cross on top, of course), can be found here (scroll down a little):
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  I imagine you guys can find plenty of other crowns with a cross on top but I think Cathars best fit the given context. Are you able to identify this gal from her crown?

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 02-03-2019, 07:41 PM

  (02-03-2019, 03:37 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (02-03-2019, 09:27 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You make a good point. The depicted men and women were surely connected when alive. Most likely, they were perfecti, that is, the lay clergymen and clergywomen of the Cathars. The bulge in the middle of some of the men's hats may indicate some type of religious or professional status.

  
  I don't think I've ever seen anyone who jumps to conclusions as quickly as you do, Morten.
  
  As I keep saying, this is not research.
  
  Deciding what it is, at the drop of a hat, without evidence, is not research. It's storytelling. It's a completely different activity.

  
  JP, I have in fact made an extensive study of the Cathars and their religion, on which I base my suppositions, but it is not realistic to go into detail on that here. If I had to do it all over again, I would have changed the word "surely" to "probably" to make others less likely to think that I am being arrogant.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 02-03-2019, 07:49 PM

  (02-03-2019, 03:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So...Cathars wrote the original on whatever, whereever, in the 13th century. Then someone two hundred years later took their book to America to copy it onto bison? Are they the ones who slept in the swamp water and did baptisms or was it the Cathars, as you have explained previously? Are you saying there were two migrations? 

  
  No, there was only one migration. First, they wrote stuff on cow vellum in Europe in the 13th century, then took it with them to America in the 13th century where they wrote more stuff on deer skin, and then, in the early 15th century, they copied everything on to bison vellum.
  
  

  (02-03-2019, 03:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When you update your theory you have to concern yourself with everything else that changes with it.

  
  You make it pretty obvious that I need to write with greater clarity.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 03-03-2019, 12:23 AM

  (02-03-2019, 07:41 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JP, I have in fact made an extensive study of the Cathars and their religion, on which I base my suppositions, but it is not realistic to go into detail on that here. If I had to do it all over again, I would have changed the word "surely" to "probably" to make others less likely to think that I am being arrogant.

  
  I've written five responses to this and I realize it's pointless. You only see the VMS through your theory-colored glasses.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Koen G > 03-03-2019, 12:29 AM

  The Devonshire tapestries reflect a late stage of a style called international gothic or courtly style. It became popular around a number of European courts during the early 15th century. 
  
  The archer, female gemini and Virgo dress point towards this international style, not to England specifically. It just so happens that an example I particularly like for its clarity is from England. But even then, the tapestries were manufactured in Northern France.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Linda > 03-03-2019, 01:13 AM

  Quote: I was wondering what you guys think of the Cathar queen depicted on f72v, the same page on which we find the 11mn quire number discussed earlier:
  
  
  
  Take notice of the puffed-up crown with a cross on top. A comprehensive account of royalty who converted to Catharism in the 13th century, along with depictions of their crowns (puffed-up with a cross on top, of course), can be found here (scroll down a little):
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  I imagine you guys can find plenty of other crowns with a cross on top but I think Cathars best fit the given context. Are you able to identify this gal from her crown?

  
  Im no expert but i dont see any indication of crowns with crosses in your link. I see other types but nothing matching this nymph. 
  
  
  That is the closest i saw. As you can see, no cross on top.
  
  
  Austria
  
  
  Austria
  
  
  Austria
  
  I couldnt find any others with both triangle shaped pieces and a cross on top. With different shaped pieces and cross:
  
  
  Sweden

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Linda > 03-03-2019, 01:19 AM

  (02-03-2019, 07:49 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (02-03-2019, 03:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So...Cathars wrote the original on whatever, whereever, in the 13th century. Then someone two hundred years later took their book to America to copy it onto bison? Are they the ones who slept in the swamp water and did baptisms or was it the Cathars, as you have explained previously? Are you saying there were two migrations? 

  
  No, there was only one migration. First, they wrote stuff on cow vellum in Europe in the 13th century, then took it with them to America in the 13th century where they wrote more stuff on deer skin, and then, in the early 15th century, they copied everything on to bison vellum.
  
  

  (02-03-2019, 03:47 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When you update your theory you have to concern yourself with everything else that changes with it.

  
  You make it pretty obvious that I need to write with greater clarity.

  
  Ok but i just saw the thread with your two way conversation and deer was excluded, albeit not your particular supposed species of marsh deer. Was it transferred to the bison version? So these must have been converts that kept the religion going, i assume? This was still in America right, they had been there since the 13th century? Just trying to make sure i understand what you are proposing.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 03-03-2019, 01:56 AM

  (03-03-2019, 01:13 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Im no expert but i dont see any indication of crowns with crosses in your link. I see other types but nothing matching this nymph. 
  
  That is the closest i saw. As you can see, no cross on top.

  
  Thanks. It seems there is no end to the problems being caused by my poor eyesight and the poor resolution of my computer. I only have an 11-inch notebook to work with. But I can now see that these crowns have an umbrella on top and not a cross.
  
  In any case it matters little: I've just discovered that the Cathar website uses generic crowns for barons, viscounts, earls, marquis, and dukes, so these are not the real crowns of the persons concerned. However, it looks like queens and princesses did in fact use crosses instead of umbrellas, so there may yet be some chance of identifying that gal.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Linda > 03-03-2019, 02:02 AM

  (03-03-2019, 01:56 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (03-03-2019, 01:13 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Im no expert but i dont see any indication of crowns with crosses in your link. I see other types but nothing matching this nymph. 
  
  That is the closest i saw. As you can see, no cross on top.

  
  Thanks. It seems there is no end to the problems being caused by my poor eyesight and the poor resolution of my computer. I only have an 11-inch notebook to work with. But I can now see that these crowns have an umbrella on top and not a cross.
  
  In any case it matters little: I've just discovered that the Cathar website uses generic crowns for barons, viscounts, earls, marquis, and dukes, so these are not the real crowns of the persons concerned. However, it looks like queens and princesses did in fact use crosses instead of umbrellas, so there may yet be some chance of identifying that gal.

  
  I believe some think the crown could have been added later because the ink seems a bit darker than the rest of the nymph.
  
  Yes i had thought that might be the case about generic icons as most were the same one.
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