- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Morten St George Theory
- Morten St George Theory
-
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 15-03-2018, 05:12 AM
Morten, the four-legged scorpions from England are different from the VMS "scorpion".
They are mostly dragons (with four, two, or no legs). They are recognizably different from the four-legged Scorpius symbols from most of the continent, the ones that look more like dinosaurs/salamanders/lizards (more like the VMS) than like dragons.
You can see pictures here of a map that shows their origins (the ones at the bottom of the blog are the most recent):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You can also see Sagittarius with crossbow information here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
D. O'Donovan also has crossbow information, but she can link those herself, as I don't know my way around her blog.
My background blog on the evolution of medieval zodiacs is here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I have also posted about several other zodiac symbols:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Libra
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Libra
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Cancer
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Gemini
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Leo
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Taurus
There are more, but these are the main ones.
-------------------------------
You really need to look at the maps, in particular, especially some of the maps for Sagittarius and Scorpio. The locations of the ones where the origin are known use green arrows, and those where the origin is somewhat known, but not specifically, use tan arrows.
I also wrote about the zodiac symbols in 2013, but the newer blogs on each specific symbol have a lot more pictures and include the maps, so I don't know how useful the original blog is any more. Even if you look at nothing else, look at the maps on the more recent blogs.
-------------------------------------
Also, it might be worth looking at this one. It has examples of how lizards, crocodiles, and salamanders were drawn in the Middle Ages. It was a response to a post on Nick's blog by someone specifically looking at Europe, so it focuses mostly on western imagery, but since they are consistent with the kind of imagery in the VMS zodiac symbols, it is probably relevant:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 16-03-2018, 02:50 AM
(15-03-2018, 05:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, the four-legged scorpions from England are different from the VMS "scorpion".
You seem to have assumed in your extensive research that the VMS is an original work redacted during the period 1404 to 1438. I do not reject the radiocarbon results but I am convinced the current VMS merely copies drawings and glyphs made much earlier.
My reasons for thinking so are as follows:
1. The general lack of blatantly visible errors or corrections might be more suggestive of a copying effort than original creation.
2. The VMS lacks stylistic similarities with other manuscripts of the 14th and 15th centuries, such as ruled lines for writing, elegant drawings, etc, which suggests authorship in a more remote time or place.
3. There is evidence of authorship by Cathars who were long extinct by the 15th century.
SUMMARY OF REASONS FOR BELIEVING THAT THE VMS WAS CREATED BY CATHARS
1. Depiction of administration of the sacrament of consolamentum on folio 80v
2. Depiction of an aversion to procreation on folio 80r
3. Depiction of the teaching of parchment-making on folio 80r
4. Depiction of a castle that may be the Cathar fortress at Montsegur on folio 86+ foldout
5. Astrological councils comprised of both men and women (rare for medieval Europe, women held equality with men in Catharism)
6. Predominance of women in the biological section (again reflective of female independence unique to Catharism in that epoch)
7. Lack of depictions of soldiers, military armor or weapons like swords commonly seen in medieval manuscripts (to be expected as Cathars were a peace-loving people opposed to violence and warfare)
8. Lack of biblical or religious imagery such as angels, monks, saints, etc. often seen in medieval manuscripts (to be expected as Cathars rejected the Old Testament as well as the idols and rites of Catholicism)
9. Need to employ encryption due to severe persecution by the Inquisition (it is understandable that the Cathars would want to keep their sacred writings from Inquisition eyes)
10. Lack of identifiable sources for zodiacal and other drawings due to widespread destruction of their literature by the Inquisition
I think this last one has hurt you severely in your research: You cannot find what no longer exists.
Let me also mention that there is an allusion to Cathars in Rosicrucian esoteric literature and references to Cathars in non-esoteric Rosicrucian legends (by theory, the Rosicrucians published the VMS recipes). Overall, I'm confident that Cathars wrote the original version of the VMS during the late 13th century.
Where, and by whom, was a copy made 1404 to 1438? If not by native Americans on buffalo hide, then a hundred baby cows belonging to whom? -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 16-03-2018, 05:32 AM
Quote:MSG: "You seem to have assumed in your extensive research that the VMS is an original work redacted during the period 1404 to 1438. I do not reject the radiocarbon results but I am convinced the current VMS merely copies drawings and glyphs made much earlier."
No, I haven't assumed that at all.
Pretty much everything done in the medieval era was based on earlier works. Anything encyclopedic in nature is at least partly based on earlier works, so I have never discounted the probability that earlier works were consulted.
But even so, if you look at the maps on my blog, you would see that 1) courtly-love versions of Gemini, 2) lizard-style Scorpius, and 3) crossbowman Sagittarius ONLY occurred during a very limited time of history.
-
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 16-03-2018, 10:25 AM
(16-03-2018, 05:32 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:But even so, if you look at the maps on my blog, you would see that 1) courtly-love versions of Gemini, 2) lizard-style Scorpius, and 3) crossbowman Sagittarius ONLY occurred during a very limited time of history.
Wikipedia cites a prominent archaeologist from Yale University:
"[O]ur knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and 'Pilgrim's Progress')."
Native American literature was destroyed by the Inquisition, the same Inquisition that, in the 13th century, destroyed virtually all of Cathar literature that was compiled during the preceding hundred years. Today, we have no idea how many books the Cathars wrote (probably a huge number) nor do we know how many of them were written in Voynichese.
The point I am trying to make is that an exhaustive search of extant medieval literature may not find VMS sources because those sources were destroyed and hence not available. We know as fact that Cathar literature was destroyed so, unless you wish to challenge authorship by Cathars, I think you are not justified in concluding that the VMS zodiac has limited sources. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
davidjackson > 16-03-2018, 06:39 PM
Morten, your crossbowman from #You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. comes from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Please remember to post sources.
Incidentally, there has been much discussion over whether the chap is actually a monk, due to his tonsure (he's not "wearing something on his head") and general dress. That section of the Psalter is full of hunters and archers. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 16-03-2018, 07:27 PM
What David said, and also, type, type, type. Someone wearing a police cap is not the same as someone wearing a chef's hat. Hats are one of the main features to tell things like profession, religion, ethnicity, social class etc. You can't just say a hat is a hat, the type of hat is extremely important.
Also, the facial hair of the VM archer is likely to tell us about his background. The VM is very sparing with men's facial hair, so when there's one with a pointy beard like that, it means something. You can't just say "this guy has also got a beard" and call it a day. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
davidjackson > 16-03-2018, 07:53 PM
It's quite a hipster beard VM-Man is rocking.
I reckon the crossbowman could be this bloke from a different angle
![[Image: beard-e1436834326771.jpg]](http://beardpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/beard-e1436834326771.jpg)
(offtopic) I think it's about time long hats made a come back. Come on. How cool was a proper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? And when you've arrived, you already have your picnic blanket with you! -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 16-03-2018, 10:24 PM
(16-03-2018, 06:39 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, your crossbowman from #You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. comes from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Please remember to post sources.
Incidentally, there has been much discussion over whether the chap is actually a monk, due to his tonsure (he's not "wearing something on his head") and general dress. That section of the Psalter is full of hunters and archers.
Yeah, I'll have to be more careful. I have a bad habit of sometimes not being profound about sources in non-formal writing especially when I see that it can be easily found on a search: googling manuscript 1320-1340 quickly produces a full page of Luttrell Psalter results.
I agree with you that it's a tonsure (on the existence of which I was ignorant). Anyway, the Cathars hated those Catholic superstitions, so it is easy to see why they decided to cover the tonsure with a hat!
-
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 17-03-2018, 01:16 PM
(15-03-2018, 05:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, the four-legged scorpions from England are different from the VMS "scorpion".
I would not rule out the possibility that the VMS authors created an original design for the scorpion, possibly influenced by earlier depictions of dragons. Some of their zodiac images are traditional, so they apparently knew what a real scorpion looked like but did not want to use it.
By MSG Theory, anything and everything in the VMS that relates to Europe or Old World culture should predate A.D. 1244. As you know, I am theorizing that the escapees of Montségur fled to the Americas whereupon all contact with the Old World would have been lost.
That gives you a maximum range of just 194 years to work with: from 1244 to 1438. The Hundred Years War began in 1337 and appears to have been heavily depicted in the literature of the epoch. Are you able to find a scene from that war in the VMS? Maybe a heraldry device or emblem? A king or court scene? Depiction of a cannon would swing it as they were introduced into Europe in the 14th century.
What about depiction of a saint or pope from the 14th century? A new architectural design? Can you date the clothing in the astrology section? The archer's hat has a tail; when did they start to put tails on their hats?
Wilfred Voynich dated the VMS to the 13th century and, prior to the fateful events of 1944 (when a prominent botanist discovered a sunflower), medieval experts tended to agree with him or, at least, they found nothing in the VMS that would suggest a later date. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 17-03-2018, 03:31 PM
(17-03-2018, 01:16 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(15-03-2018, 05:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, the four-legged scorpions from England are different from the VMS "scorpion".
I would not rule out the possibility that the VMS authors created an original design for the scorpion, possibly influenced by earlier depictions of dragons. Some of their zodiac images are traditional, so they apparently knew what a real scorpion looked like but did not want to use it.
...
Sigh. It appears you didn't look at my links or you would never have posted that statement.
If you had, you would see that VMS Scorpius is not original. There are also sculptures that are based on the same idea but I couldn't post them because I couldn't find any photos of them that were public domain or otherwise postable, but even so, on the maps it is clear that the VMS Scorpius follows a minor "lizard/dinosaur-style" tradition specific to its time.