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• RE: f34v

  Anton > 22-10-2021, 08:47 PM

  Thanks Michelle, so it turned out very plain - Lunaria is Lunaria
  
  As a side note, there's the remarkable context of days "belonging" to plants. Quite probably this is reflected in the VMS somehow. Here it says of days of week belonging to plants, maybe there's also been a concept of days of month or days of year belonging to plants (?)

• RE: f34v

  MichelleL11 > 23-10-2021, 12:41 PM

  (22-10-2021, 08:47 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Michelle, so it turned out very plain - Lunaria is Lunaria
  
  As a side note, there's the remarkable context of days "belonging" to plants. Quite probably this is reflected in the VMS somehow. Here it says of days of week belonging to plants, maybe there's also been a concept of days of month or days of year belonging to plants (?)

  
  Yes - but in typical fashion for the times it was not done consistently.  Which is of course tough for a cipher approach - that is, the constant reminders that spelling was “optional.” Just like “alphabetical” was loose and can’t be relied upon.
  
  I also just realized that although there is discussion of “seven herbs” there are only six in the text.  What happened to Saturday’s plant? 
  
  I have to wonder if such looseness with “rules” in written language and communication at the time is the source of the often observed phenomena with the Voynich - both in the text and the illustrations - that for every rule underlying a proposed pattern there is always an exception.  I suppose that can be seen as part of its charm but l find it nothing short of maddening.  l admittedly lack the cultural context that could smooth over the inconsistencies so in a way its a shortfall on my end but it still is frustrating and certainly concerning - taken out to its logical conclusion of irreparable information loss.
  
  Bottom line here - we’ve lost a plant in this recipe.  Oh well, didn’t want to fly anyway - LOL. 

• RE: f34v

  bi3mw > 23-10-2021, 01:42 PM

  (23-10-2021, 12:41 PM)MichelleL11 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also just realized that although there is discussion of “seven herbs” there are only six in the text.  What happened to Saturday’s plant? 

  
  

  Quote:Das 7. Kraut wurde allerdings ausgelassen „ich als nit schreib, das yemant darvon sol geergert werden“ doch kann man getrost annehmen, dass es sich bei diesem Kraut um die Alraune gehandelt haben muss. Da dieser Pflanze die größten „magischen Eigenschaften“ zugeschrieben wurden, sie ein Gewächs des Saturns (also des fehlenden Samstags), und die halluzinogene Wirkung eine „Flugerfahrung“ ermöglicht.
  
  English translation:
  The 7th herb, however, was omitted but one can confidently assume that this herb must have been the mandrake. Since the greatest "magical properties" were attributed to this plant, it is a plant of Saturn (i.e. the missing Saturday), and the hallucinogenic effect allows a "flight experience".
  
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  Off Topic
  

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  To help you still to a "flight experience" I recommend the following book:
  Liebestrank und Zaubersalbe von Enrico Malizia - Gesammelte Rezepturen aus alten Hexenbüchern
  ( Love Potion and Magic Ointment by Enrico Malizia - Collected Recipes from Old Witch Books )
  
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  Enrico Malizia is professor of toxicology at the University "La Sapienza" in Rome. So he probably knows what he is writing about. At least in the beginning part of his book flying ointments with recipe are described.
  
  

  Quote:Over the past centuries, people have puzzled over the possible ingredients of a typical witch's ointment, sometimes in a very adventurous manner. There has been talk of human blood, children's fat, bats, and so on. A particularly informative book - "Love Potion and Magic Ointment" - was published in 2002 by Enrico Malizia, in which he collected recipes from old books. Often recipes of these witch ointments also contain poisonous plants from the Solanaceae family, i.e. nightshade plants, such as henbane, belladonna and datura. These have an analgesic effect, lead to intoxicating states, but quickly have a lethal effect in higher doses.

  
  Seriously, none of the recipes are recommended for use.

• RE: f34v

  MichelleL11 > 23-10-2021, 02:34 PM

  bi3mw wrote:
  Seriously, none of the recipes are recommended for use.
  
  Oh, l know - l was just joking.  Thanks for the extra info.

• RE: f34v

  RenegadeHealer > 24-10-2021, 01:27 PM

  (22-10-2021, 09:38 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Koen G Wrote:I don't know much about alchemy, but is it possible that a "concept" of the plant existed in alchemy - related traditions that was separate from the actual plant?

  I don't know much about alchemy either. Since most alchemical concepts (like the Stone or the Elixir) appear to be symbolical, it could be that the alchemical Lunaria is similarly removed from objective existence.

   
  
  Hi guys. I've just gotten into reading a bit about alchemy, and both of your observations seem to be on the right track, from what I can tell.  The thing is, there are two alchemies:
  

  1. The transformation of base materials into refined materials — an objective and external transformation
     
  2. The transformation of oneself as a base animal into a refined sentient being — a subjective and internal transformation
     

  
  What is beyond question from a historical and literary perspective, is that meaning number one predated and gave rise to meaning number two, by way of analogy. What is a matter of perennial spirited debate, and may never be settled to everyone's satisfaction, is when meaning number two first arose, and which one (or both) of these meanings were intended in each surviving alchemical work from that point on. It's quite likely that after a certain point in history, both meanings of "alchemy" were intended at once in many, maybe most, essays on alchemy. The thing to understand is, this relationship between the two meanings was more than merely analogy. It was a sense of Natural Law that governed and connected all entities, regardless of their apparent dissimilarities. I think not a small number of alchemists in the olden days — and modern alchemists who strive to read old texts with the mindset of the author's intended audience — would argue that distinguishing clearly between written references to external alchemy and written references to internal alchemy, is not of crucial importance to the praxis and appreciation of alchemy.
  
  I don't fully agree. The praxis of external alchemy has led to the development of the modern science of chemistry, which has completely replaced it for all of our transformation-of-matter goals. The praxis of internal alchemy, meanwhile, has led to many vibrant and effective traditions of mysticism, inner transformation, and modern psychotherapy. To me, the value of historical alchemical texts is their application to inner alchemical work. This is because inner alchemists have had to adjust their goals based on new understandings of what's possible, less than outer alchemists have. No one with an up to date understanding of chemistry is trying to turn lead into gold anymore. But many, many people with an understanding of the human condition still see much value in changing one's attitude and mindset as a way to change how one affects the outer world, and to be more at peace with both inner and outer worlds. So if I know a pre-modern alchemical author was thinking, writing, and doing exclusively external alchemy, I won't waste my time plumbing his words for metaphors that apply to my own work.

• RE: f34v

  bi3mw > 24-10-2021, 02:27 PM

  (24-10-2021, 01:27 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No one with an up to date understanding of chemistry is trying to turn lead into gold anymore.

  Well, the transmutation of metals into gold is possible, at least in the laboratory. So you could say that the ancient alchemists were ahead of their time in some ways.
  
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