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• M(n)išovský

  Anton > 19-07-2017, 05:05 PM

  I decided to open a dedicated thread about this man, so as not to flood the other thread #2009 with particulars of his life not directly related to his report to Marci (about 600 ducats, you know).
  
  I wondered why the man is called "Mnišovský" while in the 18th century Plezl's book he is called "Mischowsky" (without letter "n").
  
  (to be precise, his was born as Sobiehrd but later he took on his mother's surname M(n)išovský, supposedly because "Sobiehrd" was too tough for his fellows abroad).
  
  It appears that "Mnišovský" is a valid form of his name. Contemporary sources such as the German Wikipedia You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. confirm that.
  
  And quite a number of old references can be found in old books via Google books if a search is performed against "Mischowsky" keyword.
  
  I do not know yet whether the actual name (i.e. his mother's name) was with the letter "n" or without, and when it was that the other form of the name appeared. Screening of Google books suggests that the form of "Mnischowsky" was already in use at least as early as 1709.
  
  However, it is particularly interesting that a third form of his name existed - namely, the Germanised form "Meisch". See "Beiträge zur Geschichte der böhmischen Länder", You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., page 73:
  
  

  Quote:Dr. Raphael Meisch oder Mischowsky (Mnissowsky oder Mnischowsky) von Sebuzin

  
  The word form of Meisch open a new path for investigation.
  
  For example, the following interesting passage is immediately found (in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), about some confiscation of books (and other belongings) in Jihlava in 1625:
  
  

  Quote:Sehr viele Einwohner Jglau's verließen ihre Vater stadt und versügten sich rößtentheils nach Ungarn. Die zurückgelassenen Realitäten fielen dem k. Fiscus zu und wurden theilweisse zur Abstattung des städt. Darlehens von 90,000 Gulden verwendet, theilweisse zur Erbauung des Collegiums und der Kirche der Jeſuiten überlassen. Als Inquiſitions - Commiſſäre wurden (1625) die kais. Räthe Raphael Meisch von Herrnstein und Ronsperg und Georg Bacher abgeordnet.
  Ein weiteres Reformationsmittel war die Abforde rung aller Bücher aus der Stadt und den Vorſtädten, welche der Cardinal Dietrichſtein auf das Rathhaus bringen ließ (2. Febr. 1626).

  
  (p. 280)
  
  On page 269 op.cit. we find the following information:
  
  

  Quote:Die Doctoren Raphael Meisch und Georg Bacher nahmen als kais. Commissarien am 31.August u. ff. 1622 in Iglau mit der ganzen Bürgerschaft die Untersuchung vor.

  
  The town of Jihlava was evidently an unfortunate object of constant imperial commissions.
  
  Note that in both cases Meisch is mentioned together with one Dr. Bacher. I wonder if Bacher could be Baresсh?   After all, both are Georgs, and "Bacher" is just as close to "Baresch" as "Meisch" is to "Mischowsky".

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Anton > 19-07-2017, 06:18 PM

  There have been several Georgs Bachers from that time onwards, so searching for this very Bacher is not easy.
  
  However, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I have been able to locate the following reference (p. 222):
  
  

  Quote:Einiger Einblick in die Vermögensverhältnisse des Klosters seit dessen Gründung gewinnt man aus dem auf Befehl Ferdinand's II von den kaiserlichen niederosterreichischen Regimentsräthen Dr. Georg Bacher und Dr. Hans von Huttendorf und dem niederosterreichischen Regimentssekretar Hanns Jakob Wassermann am 1. Dezember 1632 aufgenommenen Inventor;

  
  (here the Google excerpt abrupts, and no full version is available)
  
  I don't know which "Kloster" is meant, the preceding sentence tells us about some "Polixena" (?) established in June 1633.
  
  Anyway, we learn that in 1632 Dr. Georg Bacher, who several years before that oppressed the people of Jihlova together with Mnischowsky, was some "kaiserlichen niederosterreichischen Regimentsräthen" (what's that? ).

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Helmut Winkler > 19-07-2017, 06:50 PM

  "kaiserlichen niederosterreichischen Regimentsräthen" are Imperial Lower Austrian Government Counselors, Regiment in this case is not the military unit but Regierung/Government and Rat/Counselor is an administrative official, as a matter of fact a Regierungsrat is a medium member of the German administrative nomenklatira even today
  
  Do you know the place they were ransacking? Polixena is a womans name (Ovid, Vergil) and there is a Polyxena of Lobkowitz, quite important at the time, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Searcher > 19-07-2017, 06:56 PM

  (19-07-2017, 06:18 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There have been several Georgs Bachers from that time onwards, so searching for this very Bacher is not easy.
  
  However, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. I have been able to locate the following reference (p. 222):
  
  

  Quote:Einiger Einblick in die Vermögensverhältnisse des Klosters seit dessen Gründung gewinnt man aus dem auf Befehl Ferdinand's II von den kaiserlichen niederosterreichischen Regimentsräthen Dr. Georg Bacher und Dr. Hans von Huttendorf und dem niederosterreichischen Regimentssekretar Hanns Jakob Wassermann am 1. Dezember 1632 aufgenommenen Inventor;

  
  (here the Google excerpt abrupts, and no full version is available)
  
  I don't know which "Kloster" is meant, the preceding sentence tells us about some "Polixena" (?) established in June 1633.
  
  Anyway, we learn that in 1632 Dr. Georg Bacher, who several years before that oppressed the people of Jihlova together with Mnischowsky, was some "kaiserlichen niederosterreichischen Regimentsräthen" (what's that? ).

  
  I don't know, whether it will help, but here is about the same person(s) :
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Koen G > 19-07-2017, 07:22 PM

  [BSB München, Signatur: Hbost Ga 192 s; Inhalt: Lateinische Dissertationen von 1566 bis 1792
  mit Namensregister der Autoren der Dissertationen; Namensbeispiele: Barschius Georgius im
  Jahr 1603; Bartschius Michael im Jahr 1613; Batzdorf Michael im Jahr 1635; Parvus Salomon im
  Jahr 1609;] 
  
  Does this mean Baresch wrote a dissertation in Latin in 1603? It would be possible since he got his Baccalaureate a year before.
  
  (source: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Anton > 19-07-2017, 08:23 PM

  Quote:Do you know the place they were ransacking?

  
  Unfortunately no. The only other sentence visible in the excerpt is the one that precedes the paragraph above quoted, and it reads:
  
  Polixena wurde am 29. Juni 1633 installirt. (Reg. Nr. 139).
  
  I'm not sure if the word is "Polixena", the font is a bit gothic for me. Here's the direct link:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The next paragraph, as you see, begins with a reference to a Kloster, so I decided that "Polixena" is the name of the place.
  
  It's a pity that the full text is not available. Full texts of some other books with this title are available, but "Bacher" is not found there. I guess they relate to other years of Diocese Wien.
  
  If we search this book for "Polixena", a number of references is output (but not this very one - the search is not very consistent, it appears), in particular (quite as you suggest) - to a woman's name of "Polixena Ruschinger".
  
  

  Quote:I don't know, whether it will help, but here is about the same person(s) :
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  Ha! This time Mischowsky (as he is called here), Bacher and one "fiskal" Michael Pastorius seem to vex the folks of Odry in 1630. Will look into the translation later, thx Searcher!
  
  

  Quote:Does this mean Baresch wrote a dissertation in Latin in 1603? It would be possible since he got his Baccalaureate a year before.

  
  Quite so. According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it took him one year to prepare and defend his master's.

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Koen G > 19-07-2017, 08:24 PM

  Apparently my Nedersaksisch is better than my modern German, but do I get this right?
  

  • In 1625, state officials "Meisch" and "Bacher" are involved in seizing the goods of those who left the town.
    
  • In 1626, all books were confiscated.
    
  • In 1637, Baresch writes about the VM to Kircher for the first time we know of.
    

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Anton > 19-07-2017, 08:33 PM

  I can only say that, of all languages, only my Russian is better than yours, so I won't venture to comment upon your understanding of those sources. But I won't pay much attention to that Mnischowsky and Bacher confiscated books in Jihlova, I just highlighted that as an interesting evidence that "all books" (!) would be confiscated in principle. I did not delve deeper into the history of this worthy town, but I suspect that the matter was about catholic vs protestant, so maybe they searched for prohibited books?!
  
  What's interesting that it is not only 1625 when Mnischowsky was going to-and-fro and confiscating stuff, it's rather a series of years as we are now able to see through only a few references. Due to the Voynich Manuscript issue he managed to install himself in history as the friend of arts and science, but actually he was a bit less romantic and friendly person, it seems.

• RE: M(n)išovský

  Koen G > 19-07-2017, 08:53 PM

  The history of the region (Moravia) in this period is indeed marked by lots of religious unrest.
  
  "When the Anabaptists were expelled (1622), and the country became depopulated during the Thirty Years' War (1618–48), the Jews took over new economic areas and were also permitted to acquire houses formerly occupied by "heretics.""
  
  So this was a period of migration, of expulsion and influx of different religious groups. That our confiscating duo was active during this time is fascinating. If these two are really M&B (or only one of them), I could imagine some of the more interesting books sticking to their fingers...

• RE: M(n)išovský

  -JKP- > 19-07-2017, 09:02 PM

  This may all be converging on another trail I've been following, but I don't know if there's ever a way to be sure.
  
  It's a busy time of year for me so I'm having trouble finding time to write it up, but I wonder if there's a connection between something I've been scratching my head over for a couple of years and this.
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