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• The Voynich suns

  davidjackson > 02-07-2017, 02:46 PM

  The conversation on religious imagery (#1975) reminded me of a topic I've been meaning to write up on for ages. Never mind, I'll throw a few half assed ideas up here and see where it leads us.
  
  We haven't had a decent discussion of the sun and moon imagery, so let's start one.
  
  Nick P. has his usual insightful thoughts on the subject (for example, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). I'm going to mention a different angle:
  
  Are the sun and moon religious in nature - and if so, are they Christian?
  
  First off, how many suns and moons are there?
  
  Well, every folio in Quire 9, when they are mixed along with lots of "stars" and other diagrams
  

  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
    
  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
    
  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (all three foldouts)
    
  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (third foldout)
    

  And one in Quire 10

  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (middle foldout)
    

  Am I missing any?
  
  Now, try as I may, I can only find one angle where the Catholic Church used sun / moon imagery as official symbology: the conquest of Islamic Al-Andalus. The Moors used the half crescent sun, so the Spanish forces used the imagery of a sun, often superimposed upon a moon, to reflect the triumph of the Christian Kings over the Moors. Here's an image from my local cathedral, a sun surrounded by 32 rays:
  
  
  It's the "sun of Villalán" and it's also the symbol of the city of Almería. Bishop Villalán seems to have come up with it, and used it as his personal seal. He later had it added to the Cathedral when it was being built under his auspices in 1525. You find similar symbols carved here and there on ancient buildings in the east of Andalucía, although outside of this region it was never an official Church sanctioned symbol.
  
  Interestingly enough, the whole motif never caught on, although there's a tenuous link between it and south America, where the emergent sun appears on all sorts of flags and motifs for the old Spanish possessions over there. But they are secular in nature.
  
  So no, the sun and moon doesn't seem to be religious in nature, and their use in the manuscript certainly doesn't lend itself to this interpretation.
  
  But does anyone out there have a Christian angle to the sun/moon imagery or any other thoughts on the matter?

• RE: The Voynich suns

  Helmut Winkler > 02-07-2017, 05:23 PM

  Sun and moon have a relgious meaning in connection with the crucifixion, cp. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., see the reference to the Lexikon der christlichen Ikonographie,
  
  Just to state my personal opinion: I don't think the VMs suns and moons have any religious meanings but an astronomical/astrological meaning only. And like in any other scientific medieval ms. there are no religious connotations.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  MarcoP > 02-07-2017, 07:21 PM

  (02-07-2017, 02:46 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And one in Quire 10

  • You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (middle foldout)
    

  Am I missing any?

  
  Hi David, isn't You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.? (quire numbers is one of those things I will never memorize)
  
  Also the are two suns in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. corners of the Rosettes foldout.
  
  In this case, my personal opinion is the same as Helmut's.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  -JKP- > 02-07-2017, 10:13 PM

  Sun and mooon imagery is very prevalent in alchemical manuscripts.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  davidjackson > 02-07-2017, 10:18 PM

  Interesting Helmut, thanks.
  Marco - my fat fingers strike again!
  Well, we all seem to be in agreement on this then.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  Davidsch > 03-07-2017, 10:51 AM

  No religious meaning?  What about specific religious usage and /or symbolic meaning ?
  
  For example bread is used by Christians to represent the body of Christ. 
  Finding a picture of bread in a manuscript could point to that specifically, but also you can write that a bread has no religious meaning because it is a bread.
  Both arguments are true.
  
  But within the particular context of the manuscript you could then make arguments that the bread is meant as reference to the Body of Christ.
  
  It means that if you can back-trace a specific image to a location or religion, you can say: it is "commonly used by/at".
  
  This is also true for the Sun and Moon images.  An Arabic Sun is not like a French sun in manuscripts around in the 15th century.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  Koen G > 03-07-2017, 10:58 AM

  It's hard to use an image of Sun or Moon without any kind of symbolical meaning - it will rarely stand just for itself. The Sun can mean day, light, heat, summer, Jesus, Sol, rebirth, giver of life or violent oppressor. Divine or political power. And a thousand things more, depending on time, place, culture and specific use.
  
  As for the VM, I don't see a reason to think otherwise than what Helmut wrote above.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  Davidsch > 03-07-2017, 11:13 AM

  Ok, that's that. we got this covered then as well.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  MarcoP > 04-07-2017, 10:10 AM

  (02-07-2017, 07:21 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Also the are two suns in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. corners of the Rosettes foldout.

  
  There's one sun also in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. We had a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. thread that almost exclusively focused on the sideburns of this guy.

• RE: The Voynich suns

  VViews > 04-07-2017, 11:15 AM

  There can also be religious associations with the Book of Revelations and the images of standing on the crescent moon or being clothed in sun. And as I mentioned in a post, the marginal Psalters also feature the sun, associated with circular diagrams depicting the day and night sky.
  Sun and moon imagery can also be found in a wide range of different kinds of medieval manuscripts, not least in philosophical, astronomical and alchemical ones, but even in works such as the Balneis:
  
  
  Morgan MS G.74 fol. 27r
  (ETA: this parallel between the Voynich diagrams and the sun and moon of the "Balneo Imperatoris Quod Sol et Luna Dicitur" is discussed in Fallacara & Occinegro's Voynich Manuscript Castel del Monte publication, p 120.)
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