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• People in Loges

  -JKP- > 11-06-2017, 02:06 AM

  People in baskets is a prevalent theme in the VMS, in both the zodiac-symbol pages and many of the pool pages, so I thought it deserved a thread on its own.
  
  To start it off the discussion, here are people in loges with beakers, surrounding Adam and Eve, as drawn in a Ripley Scroll. These particular loges have an external architecture leaning:
  
  
  
  17th-century interpretation of a scroll created by George Ripley in 1460.

• RE: People in Loges

  Diane > 11-06-2017, 04:12 AM

  -JKP -
  I'm interested in your description of these various towers etc. as loges - theatre boxes.
  
  Has it something to do with a reading of Frances Yates book?
  
  Also - though I suppose I should look it up myself - do you know the date for the first use of the word 'loges'?  I ask because if it's attested early, it could have been the idea intended by the original.
  
  PS - I think the key to the containers around the calendar folios is more the idea of sparks, cinta, scintilla, but that's just my opinion.

• RE: People in Loges

  -JKP- > 11-06-2017, 09:40 AM

  (11-06-2017, 04:12 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.-JKP -
  I'm interested in your description of these various towers etc. as loges - theatre boxes.
  
  Has it something to do with a reading of Frances Yates book?
  
  Also - though I suppose I should look it up myself - do you know the date for the first use of the word 'loges'?  I ask because if it's attested early, it could have been the idea intended by the original.
  
  PS - I think the key to the containers around the calendar folios is more the idea of sparks, cinta, scintilla, but that's just my opinion.

  
  
  I'm a music/theater lover and it amuses me to call them loges, as though the nymphs are performing a parody, an in-joke, to our consternation. I didn't get the term from anyone else.
  
  I refer to the baskets/loges that look like little space vehicles as zoomers. I use these words for convenience because they are short and descriptive and slightly ironic.

• RE: People in Loges

  davidjackson > 11-06-2017, 09:58 AM

  Surely those things people are standing on in the second frame are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  The Ripley scroll tradition is of course very symbolic (that's the whole point - it depicts the process of making the elixir of life) and your depiction above gives it a slight Renaissance tint. Those people in the bartizans seem to represent the different professions of knowledge (monk, alchemist, doctor, possibly a noble, etc) in their ivory towers of knowledge but excluded from the true garden of Eden with its original Tree of Knowledge. But the original talks of surrounding the serpent of knowledge with walls to prevent it from escaping (ie alchemical care in transmuting materials). Anyway. If we get talking on the symbology we'll be here all day
  
  Here's a link to a copy of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

• RE: People in Loges

  -JKP- > 11-06-2017, 10:34 AM

  (11-06-2017, 09:58 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Surely those things people are standing on in the second frame are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..

  
  
  Yes (or échauguette), although there is another name for them (which I can't remember at the moment) when they do not have roofs. They are like windowless oriels.

• RE: People in Loges

  -JKP- > 11-06-2017, 11:44 AM

  Except for their container-like qualities, the VMS loges are quite diverse. A few examples of stylistic differences:
  

  • Some look like biological structures.
    
  • Some look like pipes.
    
  • Others, like the one top-left on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are reminiscent of cloud bands.
    
  • Some, like those on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., resemble a cross between the containers in the small-plants section and architectural structures.
    
  • Some are distinctive, like the one middle-left on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that is somewhat heart-shaped or the one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. lower left that is detailed but hard to identify.
    
  • Those on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have a grotto-like texture or appear to be coming up out of water.
    
  • Some, in both the zodiac-symbol and pool sections, are textured like baskets.
    

  
  Some, with their decorative flourishes, remind me of my favorite bartizans, the Moorish Bélem turrets:
  
  
  Image credit: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  I've never seen such a variety of loge-like structures in any other manuscript. Usually they choose one or two styles and stick with those throughout. The very variety suggests symbolic intent.

• RE: People in Loges

  davidjackson > 11-06-2017, 12:16 PM

  Just as interesting, I think, is what these bartizans are standing upon. I would beware assigning them architectural traits at the moment - many of them are no doubt allegorical.
  But many of them aren't obviously attached to anything. Look at this example for f82r:
  
  Almost a heart....
  On the next page we have this "rocket ship"
  
  And next to her, this woman in a sort of infinity loop
  

• RE: People in Loges

  Searcher > 11-06-2017, 01:16 PM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  Turret from an English castle
  

• RE: People in Loges

  Searcher > 11-06-2017, 01:30 PM

  The Alcázar of Segovia (Spain)
  

• RE: People in Loges

  Searcher > 11-06-2017, 06:16 PM

  (11-06-2017, 12:16 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Just as interesting, I think, is what these bartizans are standing upon. I would beware assigning them architectural traits at the moment - many of them are no doubt allegorical.
  But many of them aren't obviously attached to anything. Look at this example for f82r:
  
  Almost a heart....

  
  I have another thought. In alchemical sense they could represent alchemical bowls, and specifically, vas Hermetis, bowl-shaped altar. 
  
  [Greek alchemists used what they called ὕδωρ θεῖον, meaning both divine water, and sulphurous water.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. For Zosimos (of Panopolis), the alchemical vessel was imagined as a baptismal font, and the tincturing vapours of mercury and sulphur were likened to the purifying waters of baptism, which perfected and redeemed the Gnostic initiate. Zosimos drew upon the Hermetic image of the krater or mixing bowl, a symbol of the divine mind in which the Hermetic initiate was "baptized" and purified in the course of a visionary ascent through the heavens and into the transcendent realms. Similar ideas of a spiritual baptism in the "waters" of the transcendent Pleroma are characteristic of the Sethian Gnostic texts unearthed at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. This image of the alchemical vessel as baptismal font is central to his Visions, discussed below.]
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