MarcoP > 21-04-2017, 11:01 AM
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I tried to split off the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discussion into a separate thread just for clarity.
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco: what makes me believe that there is distance between the VM and the other examples is the fact that a number of crucial elements are different, which are common to the Italian herbals.
- presence of leaves on the vine
- coloration of berries
- manner of attachment to the host
- presence of prominent roots
Now I haven't studied the Egerton MS in detail, but it is a fact that most herbals did not feature 100% new illustrations. Even if a herbal was a new creation, they'd still have to borrow material from sources. Or is it known that the Egerton MS author drew all plants from scratch? Wouldn't this be highly exceptional?
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So while the diagram you offer is not entirely impossible, I do favor Rene's more cautious note on his site:
Quote:While the Voynich MS illustration clearly isn't a copy of the Paris MS, it is also inconceivable that it was not in some way inspired by this or a similar illustration in another MS.
In other words, some relation seems very likely but it may be through similar sources rather than through direct influence.
(20-04-2017, 07:56 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Paris illustration is somewhat different, and more similar to the Voynich image.
The Paris MS was reportedly in the Visconti library in Pavia, at the time when the Voynich MS was written.
However, Toresella challenges this, and I am also beginning to doubt it.
It remains a very thin trail to the origin of the Voynich MS, but this is still a little bit more than nothing.
Koen G > 21-04-2017, 12:13 PM
MarcoP > 21-04-2017, 02:25 PM
(21-04-2017, 12:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now the VM is clearly not realistic/naturalistic. Several authors, including D'Imperio, have remarked that it looks like it should be part of a long standing tradition, but the belief in an authorial figure has always hampered the growth of such observations. She writes (p.14-15) that "plant parts frequently have a curious blocky, chunky, rough-hewn look, with platform-like structures surrounded by hard outlines defining a sharp change of plane. [...] A somewhat similar blocky, rough-hewn appearance is seen in some herbal drawings in other manuscripts, that have been copied over and over again from some earlier source by successive scribes."
Gombrich Wrote:Both horses and men look a little wooden, almost like toys, and the whole gay picture seems very remote from the reality of war. But if we ask ourselves why it is that these horses look somewhat like rocking horses and the whole scene reminds us a little of a puppet show, we shall make a curious discovery. It is precisely because the painter was so fascinated by the new possibilities of his art that he did everything to make his figures stand out in space as if they were carved and not painted.
…
By means of his beloved art of perspective, he tried to construct a convincing stage on which his figures would appear solid and real. Solid they undoubtedly look, but the effect is a little reminiscent of the stereoscopic pictures which one looks at through a pair of lenses. Uccello had not yet learned how to use the effects of light and shade and air to mellow the harsh outlines of a strictly perspective rendering.
-JKP- > 21-04-2017, 09:50 PM
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I tried to split off the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discussion into a separate thread just for clarity.
Marco: what makes me believe that there is distance between the VM and the other examples is the fact that a number of crucial elements are different, which are common to the Italian herbals.
...
- presence of leaves on the vine
- coloration of berries
- manner of attachment to the host
- presence of prominent roots
Koen G > 21-04-2017, 11:10 PM
-JKP- > 22-04-2017, 12:17 AM
(21-04-2017, 11:10 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP: this is one of the several parts of this image that are absolutely puzzling. I know ivy first hand, but it just doesn't use its stem to pierce things like that. Here it almost looks like an incision was made in the "pole" and the plant was pulled through it. I'm not sure if there's anything else like it in the VM. I can see how one can still make a case for this being ivy, but the depiction would be exceptional in many ways...
Also, the near-symmetry of the two vines seems to me an indication of either an underlying tradition or a symbolic meaning. I just finished a new blog post where I speculate a bit on this aspect, but I won't import this kind of stuff onto the forum since literally nobody would agree
MarcoP > 22-04-2017, 08:11 AM
(22-04-2017, 12:17 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have only seen this "helical" shape on one other image and it's not as symmetric or as obvious as the VMS.
I wondered at first if the helical shape (rather than the more common spiral twining shape) was a reference to "Hedera helix" the name of the ivy, but I looked up the etymology of the word "helix" and found it wasn't in general use in the early centuries (plus the plant was known as Hedera nigra in the 14th and 15th centuries), so it doesn't seem likely the helix shape was intended as a mnemonic.
ReneZ > 22-04-2017, 09:29 AM
(21-04-2017, 11:10 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just finished a new blog post where I speculate a bit on this aspect, but I won't import this kind of stuff onto the forum since literally nobody would agree
Koen G > 22-04-2017, 09:51 AM
(22-04-2017, 09:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At least I feel that in this particular case the comparison with the mosaic in Tunis is highly intriguing.
It would seem of interest to find out if similar images were propagated in more, shall we say, portable media.
-JKP- > 22-04-2017, 06:19 PM
(22-04-2017, 09:51 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
My best guess is that it mimics a form of decorative plant setup that may have been common in the area at the time. I do agree that any exemplar images used for the VM were likely in "portable" form. On the other hand, the distance from Carthage to Sicily is about one third the distance from Brussels to Berlin, in other words really close. Even if one demands that al proposed Voynich sources must have been witnessed firsthand by a travelling author, it is not unlikely that an Italian individual witnessed decorations like these in his surroundings.
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