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• [split] "Plants of the Alchemists"

• [split] "Plants of the Alchemists"

  MarcoP > 02-03-2017, 10:56 PM

  Edit KG: this thread was split from another one in the news section, for the original thread see here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

  (02-03-2017, 09:14 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I mostly expect her not to be aware of a number of pitfalls us "regulars" know all too well. One of those pitfalls is that certain herbal traditions make for easy pickings, but don't stand the test upon closer scrutiny. Case in point is when one of the experts who wrote an essay for the facsimile edition concluded that there was probably no significant link with the alchemical tradition.

  
  Hello Koen, 
  I guess that your point is that experts are sometimes wrong and can disagree with each other. I certainly can agree with that.
  
  I find the way you present your argument worth commenting.
  First of all, you didn't quote, not even mention, the researchers you are talking about. Secondly, you give the impression of not really having read what they wrote: you seem to be discussing what you grabbed from what “the regulars” wrote about these ideas. 
  
  The "facsimile edition" reference seems unambiguous: Jennifer M.Rampling, who, in her essay “Alchemical Traditions” states that “the content of this manuscript [the VMS] is almost certainly not alchemical in nature.” Since, you are talking about the plants, it should be mentioned that her analysis is only limited to “the so-called biological or balneological section.” 
  
  Given the reference to alchemy, the “certain herbal traditions” you mention must include the so-called Alchemical herbals (which are the other traditions you allude to?). The expert who you think fell into the “pitfall”, whose views "don't stand the test upon closer scrutiny", must be Sergio Toresella, who associated the Voynich ms with that tradition in 1996 (“Gli Erbari degli Alchimisti”) and, as far as I know, was the first to systematically study that tradition. The name “alchemical herbals” (erbari degli alchimisti) is a tribute to Ulisse Aldrovandi (1522-1605) -who had collected a certain number of these herbals binding them together with the label “Plants of the alchemists”; lacking a better definition I will use this word too.- One could argue that the name chosen by Toresella is not optimal: it certainly can mislead paleography newbies like myself.
  Toresella made clear that the references to alchemy are “only incidental,” mostly textual and connected to the various types of “Lunaria”.  He notes that the VMS contains “tens of plants similar to those of the alchemists, but that do not belong to the same iconographic tradition.” A similar opinion has been recently put forward by Alain Touwaide: “Several plant illustrations in the Voynich Manuscript present a similarity with botanical illustrations from the XIV and XV Century, in particular -but not only- with the so-called alchemical herbals.” 
  
  The fact that the alchemical herbals are now an “easy to pick” tradition is due to the fact that Toresella has done the hard work for us all, studying hundreds of manuscripts on the field for decades. This tradition was not “easy to pick” for him twenty years ago, it now is an excellent pick for Voynich researchers.
  
  The points of view of Rampling and Toresella/Touwaide are perfectly compatible. Of course, at the moment one cannot be certain that the VMS has no alchemical content, nor that it is related with the so-called alchemical herbals: but both opinions have been expressed in a well documented way and I think they are likely both right.
  
  I think that, if our hobby has anything to do with understanding the VMS, a real pitfall is believing that any amount of googling is somehow better than a formal training in ancient languages, art history and paleography: years (sometimes decades) of experience in actually reading and understanding true medieval manuscripts. How many complete pages of ancient manuscript text have I read? In how many languages? How many times have I held in my hands a medieval manuscript? I believe there are many more pitfalls for myself than for Rampling, Touwaide, Toresella or the young Marraccini.

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  Koen G > 05-03-2017, 10:40 PM

  Marco: upon rereading your objection I must apologize and say that I was too quick to comment. Sometimes replies are written in a few seconds' time between other obligations, while they should have deserved more attention and consideration.
  
  I must admit that I have not read Toresella's comparison between VMS plants and the "alchemist herbals" tradition. Is he the one who has made the most concrete argument so far? What would you find the most convincing links beween the VMS and this particular tradition? It might be good to bring these arguments to the fore in anticipation of the upcoming article.

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  ReneZ > 06-03-2017, 08:40 AM

  Thanks Koen, that is a fair answer.
  
  The amount of erudition and experience in such a specialised topic may be hard to fathom for someone who does not have the same background. I apply that to myself as well, but for me this realisation has been made a bit more easy by having spoken about the Voynich MS with quite a number of such specialists.
  
  The Toresella paper is in Italian, and so is the article by Touwaide that came out last year. Other relevant literature about the so-called alchemical herbals is equally in Italian. This means that this topic is not so easily accessible.
  
  Toresella does not say that the herbal part of the Voynich MS belongs to this tradition, but from his comparison it is clear that it has relevance for understanding the Voynich MS. They originated from the second half of the 14th century and were copied throughout the 15th and into the 16th century. The vast majority (if not all) of them are from Northern Italy.
  
  Touwaide (from personal communication) is less convinced about this connection, but in his paper he still quotes the result of his colleague's work. He concentrates more on a comparison with the Tractatus de Herbis tradition of illustrated herbals, which is basically contemporary with that of the alchemical herbals (though starting several decades earlier) and equally from N.Italy.
  
  The other important point was already mentioned by Marco. Alchemical herbals do not have much to do with alchemy.

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  Koen G > 06-03-2017, 10:01 AM

  So do I paraphrase correctly if I say that experts agree that the VMS is not part of any known tradition, but that either the alchemical herbals or the Tractatis de Herbis tradition are most likely to be connected to it in some way?
  
  Also, does this mean that the VMS is the earliest known illustrated herbal manuscript that is not part of any known tradition?

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  ReneZ > 06-03-2017, 10:37 AM

  It is a bit more complicated. There are relationships between the larger traditions, and there are several smaller traditions that tend to be found in the same manuscripts as the larger traditions.
  There are many hundreds of illustrated herbals made up to the 15th century, and especially in the 15th century new trends appeared. Many of these manuscripts, even when perfectly legible, cannot be dated with any accuracy.
  
  Without knowing more in detail, I can only say that it seems unlikely that the Voynich MS would be the first.
  
  Probably worth noting also is that there are other herbal manuscripts that:
  - have illustrations in ink that were never painted
  - have illustrations in ink of which only some were painted
  - have illustrations in ink that have been painted very coarsely
  - have unrecognisable or barely recognisable herbs
  - have one herb per page with short paragraphs of text
  - have text carefully avoiding (but interlacing with) the illustrations

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  MarcoP > 06-03-2017, 12:33 PM

  (05-03-2017, 10:40 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I must admit that I have not read Toresella's comparison between VMS plants and the "alchemist herbals" tradition. Is he the one who has made the most concrete argument so far? What would you find the most convincing links beween the VMS and this particular tradition? It might be good to bring these arguments to the fore in anticipation of the upcoming article.

  
  Hi Koen, you can find passages from Toresella's paper in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Dennis Stallings (2001).
  
  
  In my opinion, these are some of the things the VMS and alchemical herbals have in common. With particular reference to BNF Lat. 17848:
  
  * frequent appearance of anthropomorphic and zoomorphic elements, in particular in the roots;
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  BNF Lat 17844: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  * efforts to represent three-dimensional plant elements (again, in particular in the roots) - e.g.:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  * page layout: a single plant illustration and the corresponding text appearing on the same page, in a single column;
  
  
  As far as I know, the oldest example is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Milan, 1378: this particular manuscript is, like the VMS, something that largely departs from earlier traditions. Differently from the VMS, other later manuscripts belong to the same tradition (while apparently the VMS was not followed by other works in the same line).
  
  Toresella writes that about 70 manuscripts are linked with the “alchemical herbals” tradition and that there are huge differences between the various manuscripts. Unluckily, very few of these have been published and even fewer are available on-line. Many exemplars are not luxury works, but are actual manuals produced as a handy reference for practitioners (sometimes the author and owner of the manuscript were the same person).
  
  A later manuscript that in part derives from the alchemical tradition is the often mentioned Vermont MS m 2, which features the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. mentioned by Rene.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., writes that “Toresella counted 193 surviving fifteenth-century Herbals, i.e. sixty-seven [sic] more than the 136 enumerated for the whole of the preceding nine centuries”. This huge number of works has been studied only in part. The so-called “alchemical tradition” certainly contributes in a lesser or smaller degree to many of these. But there also are XV century ms that are original, entirely scientific (i.e. devoid of “symbolic” non-naturalistic elements) and based on the direct study of plants (e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  
  One of the works related with the so-called alchemical herbals I would be more curious to see is Florence Ashb. 731 (mentioned by both Toresella and Segre). It was written by “Magister Aloysius erbolarius et medicus de Palermo”. Since its geographic origin is so remote from that of most of the other manuscripts (typically Veneto) I guess it could be very different from what we have seen so far.

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  VViews > 06-03-2017, 12:44 PM

  Hi MarcoP,
  some folios of Florence Ashb. 731 can be viewed online. Not the full thing but enough to get some idea of what it looks like:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  MarcoP > 06-03-2017, 01:00 PM

  (06-03-2017, 12:44 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi MarcoP,
  some folios of Florence Ashb. 731 can be viewed online. Not the full thing but enough to get some idea of what it looks like:
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  Thank you, VViews! You made my day!!!

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  Davidsch > 06-03-2017, 01:47 PM

  Marco, what is the first word: Ina/ ista  erba?
  
  
  I like the "triple crown herb" and on 731, folio 74r, on top Recipe..

• RE: Voynich presentation at Oxford Medieval Graduate Conference

  Koen G > 06-03-2017, 02:35 PM

  Thanks Marco! It's always preferable to read original sources, so these translations are welcome indeed. It's also interesting to read these older discussions, which still have their echo in what we talk about today.
  
  So about Toresella and the VMS + alchemical herbals I note that:
  - He brought the at the time relatively unknown alchemist's herbals to the attention of Voynich researchers
  - He notes that the VMS contains "dozens of plants similar to those of the alchemists' herbals" (without going into much detail)
  - He also says that the VMS plants " do not belong to that iconographic tradition" and that these "fantastic plants have no relation with those of the usual alchemical herbals".
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