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Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

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• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  bi3mw > 14-11-2024, 07:54 PM

  Principe's book is also available to a limited extent via Google Books.
  
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• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  R. Sale > 14-11-2024, 09:56 PM

  The critter of VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an interesting potential example of the artist's 'sophistication' -aka trickery, which includes the use of information that may not be known to the investigator.
  
  The VMs critter looks like a "whatever". Pick what you like of the various interpretations. However, this totally misses the point of the cosmic code shift, which is not to rely entirely on appearance.
  
  The critter itself is drawn just above some 'interesting' line patterns. These lines are key to the representation but were not properly recognized. Heraldry defines this line pattern as "nebuly", derived from Latin, meaning 'cloudy'. Nebuly line patterns form the basis for many variations of wolkenbands (cloud bands), one of several ways medieval artists created cosmic boundaries between human and divine, both Christian and classical. The VMs artist also used a nebuly line in the illustration of the cosmos, confirming the interpretation.
  
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  Interpretation of the critter might go in any direction. Interpretation of the critter and the line is different. The nebuly line represents a cosmic boundary. Only one interpretation of the critter belongs with a cosmic boundary. That is the representation of the Agnus Dei.
  
  Once again, ninja forces hit the archives. And then, there is the matter of the third part of the VMs critter representation, which is the part below the nebuly lines. The most interesting discovery was BNF Fr. 13096 f 18. It shows red droplets which appear to be blood. Besides the identification, there is a structural correspondence. The lamb is on one side of the boundary and the droplets are on the other side. Other depictions of lambs that show blood seem to keep the blood inside the boundary.
  
  Despite this ms,, Apocalypse of S Jean, having an early date - 1313, it was later recorded in the library of the Dukes of Burgundy. And as of 1430, the Duke of Burgundy had established the Order of the Golden Fleece, an interpretation of the VMs critter proposed long before the nebuly line interpretation. In the same way that the VMs cosmic illustration puts a version of the BNF Fr. 565 cosmos inside a Shirakatsi wheel, or mythical Melusine in place of the generic mermaid of Harley 334, here the Golden Fleece has been superimposed on the Agnus Dei.
  
  Burgundy also had the Valois connection to Melusine. Melusine is mentioned as a table decoration at the Feast of the Pheasant. The pairing replication of the Golden Fleece in the VMs has been linked to a creature in the VMs mermaid's pool, and the mermaid is Melusine of Luxembourg.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Ruby Novacna > 15-11-2024, 01:12 PM

  (13-11-2024, 09:17 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Somehow both seem to be connected to “resurrection” (particularly, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. case, if you buy Koen’s Callisto interpretation, which I do). 

  
  Let us not forget that Koen had already presented another interpretation, just as convincing as the myth of Callisto.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Barbrey > 15-11-2024, 04:58 PM

  (14-11-2024, 09:56 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The critter of VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an interesting potential example of the artist's 'sophistication' -aka trickery, which includes the use of information that may not be known to the investigator.
  
  The VMs critter looks like a "whatever". Pick what you like of the various interpretations. However, this totally misses the point of the cosmic code shift, which is not to rely entirely on appearance.
  
  The critter itself is drawn just above some 'interesting' line patterns. These lines are key to the representation but were not properly recognized. Heraldry defines this line pattern as "nebuly", derived from Latin, meaning 'cloudy'. Nebuly line patterns form the basis for many variations of wolkenbands (cloud bands), one of several ways medieval artists created cosmic boundaries between human and divine, both Christian and classical. The VMs artist also used a nebuly line in the illustration of the cosmos, confirming the interpretation.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Interpretation of the critter might go in any direction. Interpretation of the critter and the line is different. The nebuly line represents a cosmic boundary. Only one interpretation of the critter belongs with a cosmic boundary. That is the representation of the Agnus Dei.
  
  Once again, ninja forces hit the archives. And then, there is the matter of the third part of the VMs critter representation, which is the part below the nebuly lines. The most interesting discovery was BNF Fr. 13096 f 18. It shows red droplets which appear to be blood. Besides the identification, there is a structural correspondence. The lamb is on one side of the boundary and the droplets are on the other side. Other depictions of lambs that show blood seem to keep the blood inside the boundary.
  
  Despite this ms,, Apocalypse of S Jean, having an early date - 1313, it was later recorded in the library of the Dukes of Burgundy. And as of 1430, the Duke of Burgundy had established the Order of the Golden Fleece, an interpretation of the VMs critter proposed long before the nebuly line interpretation. In the same way that the VMs cosmic illustration puts a version of the BNF Fr. 565 cosmos inside a Shirakatsi wheel, or mythical Melusine in place of the generic mermaid of Harley 334, here the Golden Fleece has been superimposed on the Agnus Dei.
  
  Burgundy also had the Valois connection to Melusine. Melusine is mentioned as a table decoration at the Feast of the Pheasant. The pairing replication of the Golden Fleece in the VMs has been linked to a creature in the VMs mermaid's pool, and the mermaid is Melusine of Luxembourg.

  
  I do think it’s the Agnus Dei and I’m well aware of nebuly lines. However, the emphasis in this illustration is all on the creature’s exaggeratedly scalloped back. It’s the focal point. Why?  It could be the Golden Fleece, but then why exaggerate the lines of the back.  In the context of a sacrificial lamb, this is the body of Christ and Christ was scourged before dying. So the fleece lines are highly exaggerated to take on both meanings of a sacrificed sheep and a scourged Christ. My question in this context was, if scourging, why? I found my answer in pseudo-Arnaldus and three other symbols that were out of place in the VMs Ovid stories. They are a set that speaks to the identification of mercury with Christ, a very well-known motif in alchemy in later years but it began formally with pseudo Arnaldus.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Barbrey > 15-11-2024, 05:08 PM

  (15-11-2024, 01:12 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (13-11-2024, 09:17 PM)Barbrey Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Somehow both seem to be connected to “resurrection” (particularly, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. case, if you buy Koen’s Callisto interpretation, which I do). 

  
  Let us not forget that Koen had already presented another interpretation, just as convincing as the myth of Callisto.

  
  Not to me. But each to their own.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  R. Sale > 15-11-2024, 10:33 PM

  That's an interesting interpretation. Rereading, I see that you called the fleece markings "highly exaggerated" and I wondered about that. The markings are unusual. In the pangolin interpretation, the scales would be backwards.
  
  Are the fleece markings exaggerated or not?
  Here are sheep:
  
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  And here are fleece images, mainly Gideon.
  
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  There is a good deal of variation in the details of the way that a fleece was drawn. Apparently, that variation comes from artistic individuality. As to exaggeration, see the sheep of 1197, Spain. Also see 1417 France. It is contemporary with the VMs and made in Alsace.
  
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  Are the Alsatian fleece markings highly exaggerated? Does that exaggeration convey any ulterior implications? That is why the interpretation of appearance is so problematic.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Barbrey > 15-11-2024, 11:54 PM

  Someone emailed to ask how “thirst” fits with the Myrrha story. Myrrha becomes the Myrhh tree and spends most of the story trying to resist her incestual desire for her own father. Again and again she expresses this temptation. It’s not an accident the page has a penis and a snake-like vessel. But I honestly had no idea what that other figure with the third hand seemingly drinking was. The other three I knew about: the bear replaced by a sheep or ram, the bloody head replaced by a red flower head and the goldfinch connection, the second spike on a crossbeam. But the only conjecture I had was that stigmata might play a role until I saw the pseudo-Arnaldus schema. 
  
  Christ at the end expresses how thirsty he is. The Roman soldiers offer him wine mixed with myrhh but he rejects it though the temptation is there. Right before he dies, a Roman soldier gives him a cup of wine vinegar. The “third” hand, in my interpretation, is the hand of the Roman soldier offering him the cup. 
  
  So the association is the temptation of the wine mixed with myrhh.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Barbrey > 16-11-2024, 09:19 PM

  (15-11-2024, 10:33 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's an interesting interpretation. Rereading, I see that you called the fleece markings "highly exaggerated" and I wondered about that. The markings are unusual. In the pangolin interpretation, the scales would be backwards.
  
  Are the fleece markings exaggerated or not?
  Here are sheep:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  And here are fleece images, mainly Gideon.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  There is a good deal of variation in the details of the way that a fleece was drawn. Apparently, that variation comes from artistic individuality. As to exaggeration, see the sheep of 1197, Spain. Also see 1417 France. It is contemporary with the VMs and made in Alsace.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Are the Alsatian fleece markings highly exaggerated? Does that exaggeration convey any ulterior implications? That is why the interpretation of appearance is so problematic.

  
  Thank you for your interest. Somehow these miniatures fail to convince. But I see I’ve failed to convince you, and that’s okay. As you say, you are a historian. I’ve been using cultural semiotics as my theoretical approach. We’ve been deployng different frameworks and methods, as well as context to our results.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Barbrey > 16-11-2024, 09:47 PM

  It seems my interpretations have gone down like a lead weight. I’ve enjoyed investigating with you!  I think I’ve done what bi3mw asked for at the beginning of this thread: showing patterns of symbols, rather than isolated ones, that provide evidence of alchemy. And I think I’ve provided what Adam McLean suggested was needed:a semiotic viewpoint rather than an alchemist’s. I’ve written most of this on my phone, so I think I should try to write a proper essay on this topic. What has really struck me is how the VMs writer has employed dissonance in narrative and substance; not only do you have to know an amazing amount of detail before getting a base interpretation, you have to know it well enough to know where it strikes a dissonant chord. So that might be my thematic focus. 
  
  My goal has been to provide enough evidence to interest an alchemy images scholar to systematically review the manuscript for signs of alchemical substance and process. I have much more than I conveyed here, but believe it or not explaining the symbolism is even more convoluted for the rosette page. I doubt a scholar will have the patience to bear with me as I discuss minute symbolic details so I don’t hold out much hope. Nevertheless, I will send the essay in to some of the well-known scholars in the field. Two have already said they will at least take a look. And perhaps their investigations will further our understanding of the manuscript. 
  
  If you are interested, please PM me for a look at the essay before I send it. Nablator and Matthias, I would welcome any input. I would also love the opinions of @searcher and @renegadehealer and anyone else who believes there is an alchemical context that deserves further investigation.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  R. Sale > 16-11-2024, 11:41 PM

  Hold on. Don't take my comments as discouragement. Kindly regard them as merely pointing out other aspects of the situation. You are right that it does take a lot of detail to interpret what we can understand so far from the various VMs illustrations. It appears we must attempt to see into the mind of someone who lived in the first half of the 1400s, and the more we know, as part of the collective ninja discussion, the better.
  
  You did see that this forum has a separate section: Drafts for Peer Review? And no postings in over six years - said the historian. If you would like to be an alchemist, light a fire under that.
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