crezac > 31-01-2016, 11:35 PM
-JKP- > 01-02-2016, 03:55 AM
(31-01-2016, 11:35 PM)crezac Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are 25 characters in the set. (attach jpg illustrating each character)
crezac > 09-03-2016, 01:51 PM
Emma May Smith > 09-03-2016, 02:30 PM
Quote:VMS is written in a set of distinct characters.
Quote:There are 25 characters in the set. (attach jpg illustrating each character)
Quote:It is not know what any character represents.
Quote:More than one character is written in the same place on some pages.
Quote:The character set is used to encodes information in strings of these characters.
Quote:Character distribution in these strings is ordered, i.e not random.
Quote:There is no string of these characters with a known meaning.
Quote:The strings are written left to right.
Quote:Individual strings can be organized into arrays separated by spaces.
Quote:Arrays are permitted to span lines.
Quote:Arrays can be used to label images.
Quote:Not all arrays are aligned with the left margin.
Quote:A blank line can be used to separate arrays.
Quote:None of the characters are used as punctuation.
Quote:None of the characters are used only as representations of numbers.
Quote:Although since it is worth discussing I will observe that most people working on a linguistic solution seem to make too many working assumptions with nothing in VMS to support them.
david > 09-03-2016, 02:32 PM
Koen G > 09-03-2016, 02:47 PM
Quote:None of the strings have been read, in my opinion
-JKP- > 09-03-2016, 07:37 PM
crezac > 10-03-2016, 02:47 PM
(09-03-2016, 02:30 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi crezac, I had no idea that this post was here, so let me give you my opinion belatedly.I don't think there's anything wrong with starting with an assumption as a starting point. The danger comes when someone makes a whole series of assumptions, and never finds evidence that supports any of them. Anyone starting where they left of has a bunch of assumptions to work with and usually makes a few more to keep the ball rolling. Some things that are still assumptions, like that glyphgroups have a pronunciation based upon a sound associated with each glyph, seem to have some general support but they are still assumptions. To move beyond that to start searching for syllable structure seems, in my non-professional opinion, to be a bit premature. If you can prove phonological encoding you have a basis for syllabification. As it is you're going to have to prove both before anyone will accept that you have syllables anyway.
Quote:VMS is written in a set of distinct characters.
By distinct do you mean "discrete" or "unique". I would broadly agree that the characters are discrete, but certainly not that they are unique.
CR: Perhaps what I meant was a distinct set of characters. Some of the glyphs look like they might have been borrowed from or influenced by early Latin, Maltese or Etruscan alphabets, to name some possibilities, but we don't have another document which uses the complete set to encode information.
Quote:There are 25 characters in the set. (attach jpg illustrating each character)
There's a core set accounting for most of the text and a bigger set of all characters. The number of characters in the core set is anywhere from high teens to low twenties. As JKP points out though, we certainly could have the count wrong. But beyond [e] and [i] sequences, I personally think we're broadly right.
CR: I used a number I found in another post here. I'm not certain of the 25, hence the edit, but it would be useful to narrow it down as much as we can if only to avoid ongoing discussion of whether 2 character are the same or different.
Quote:It is not know what any character represents.
It depends on if you mean this exactly or broadly. I have ideas, which I can support with arguments, that certain characters represent certain things. I can't be sure of any exact values, however.
CR: I mean that while many people have speculated and some have found "vowels" or things they think correspond to what they believe are specific consonants whe aren't even certain that this alphabet encodes sound as opposed to pure semantics. The numbers and punctuation comments were struckout out for the same reason. if we don't know what the text says we don't know that there aren't glyphs which are used for numbers and have some other value too. Or that a glyph meaning stop isn't slipped in where we would use a period.
Quote:More than one character is written in the same place on some pages.
I don't know what this means.
CR: There are characters that have other characters written over top of them. Possibly they are unique and distinct from their component parts. Possibly the component parts are each separate glyphs.
Quote:The character set is used to encodes information in strings of these characters.
I would agree with this, and most would. But some (Rugg, Timm) would definitely object.
CR: Anyone who thinks it's a hoax would disagree. A string can be as short as a single character so string length doesn't invalidate the statement. The only point I think open to general debate is whether information is being encoded.
Quote:Character distribution in these strings is ordered, i.e not random.
I think everybody would agree with this.
Quote:There is no string of these characters with a known meaning.
Again, it depends on how exactly you mean "known". None of the strings have been read, in my opinion, but some definitely refer to the images.
CR: Yes. I think it's clear some of the strings are labels and that provides a context for some of the strings. But I haven't seen any work where someone has sad this character string means, to pick a totally non-random example, "coriander" and I can say "Yes, I agree with that interpretation"
Quote:The strings are written left to right.
Yes. I haven't seen any recent objections to this.
Quote:Individual strings can be organized into arrays separated by spaces.
Broadly, yes. They can be organized in this way and that such division is likely meaningful. But I'm increasingly unsure how much strings on either side of a space are truly separate. Marco's recent statistics make me wonder that each string may contain, at the beginning and end, traces from neighbouring strings.
CR: I still think the spaces are meaningful as separators, but I expect the glyph groups to be more meaningful and I think there is meta-semantic structure within and among glyph groups.
Quote:Arrays are permitted to span lines.
I'm not sure that everybody would agree with this. Even though I agree that arrays do span lines, I believe they only do so with the addition of new information. A new line is in itself an informative or encoding event.
CR: I think there's an example of a label that is on three lines. I'll see if I can find it this evening. Although it's three words on three different line so it might be one word on three different lines making it a string rather than an array. Nothings ever simple ;-)
Quote:Arrays can be used to label images.
Yes.
Quote:Not all arrays are aligned with the left margin.
Yes.
Quote:A blank line can be used to separate arrays.
I don't know how much it is a blank line rather than vertical space. Even then, arrays seem to be separated without any vertical space whatsoever.
Quote:None of the characters are used as punctuation.
Pelling would contest this, for sure.
CR: Strikeout
Quote:None of the characters are used only as representations of numbers.
Some of the rare characters may be. It's wholly possible that the design of the script was borrowed from one already existing, in which (like many of the time) characters were used for numerals, but that characters representing certain sounds were left out except for their numeral use.
CR: It's also possible that it's like hieroglyphics and that the word for for example, Ox can also represent 100. Or like Roman numerals. But you're right I can't support this statement either, hence the strikeout. Strikeout indicates that all or part of the idea was considered and rejected. It's kept on the list to prevent having to discuss it 6 months from now as a new idea.
Quote:Although since it is worth discussing I will observe that most people working on a linguistic solution seem to make too many working assumptions with nothing in VMS to support them.
Can you give me some examples? I'm personally happy to make assumptions, but I would like to be aware of them and their possibility to invalidate my research.