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Anton > 12-01-2017, 08:50 PM

The identifications of this plant have been:

Th. Petersen: Paraenanthes, Atriplex hastata
E. Sherwood: Pisum sativum
Steve D: Tussilago farfara

The Finnish biologist does not consider this plant.

Of these three, methinks that Tussilago farfara is the best match. I'm not sure what does the small "pierced through" leaf stand for, though.

Turning to the mnemonic side, I can't imagine what would these leaves and roots remind me. If the roots in this case do not bear any mnemonics altogether, then they look to me as simply resembling real roots of tussilago. As for leaves, folk names of tussilago in various languages have been pointing to a hoof. The large leaf can be thought of as resembling a hoof (when looking from the ground upwards), but, if a hoof, the depiction is surely not the best possible. So I am not sure.

Are there any other proposed identifications from those who befriend botany?

Sorry, corrected the thread name - should read f8r.
RE: f8r

-JKP- > 12-01-2017, 09:15 PM

(12-01-2017, 08:50 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The identifications of this plant have been:

Th. Petersen: Paraenanthes, Atriplex hastata
E. Sherwood: Pisum sativum
Steve D: Tussilago farfara

The Finnish biologist does not consider this plant.

Of these three, methinks that Tussilago farfara is the best match. I'm not sure what does the small "pierced through" leaf stand for, though.

Turning to the mnemonic side, I can't imagine what would these leaves and roots remind me. If the roots in this case do not bear any mnemonics altogether, then they look to me as simply resembling real roots of tussilago. As for leaves, folk names of tussilago in various languages have been pointing to a hoof. The large leaf can be thought of as resembling a hoof (when looking from the ground upwards), but, if a hoof, the depiction is surely not the best possible. So I am not sure.

Are there any other proposed identifications from those who befriend botany?

Sorry, corrected the thread name - should read f8r.

I'm pretty certain this is Tussilago. There are two things that might confirm the ID, besides the shape of the leaf and the way it stands up...

See the green "puddle" under the VMS leaf? Tussilago/Petasites likes water, especially species like Petasites spurius, and the "puddle" in the drawing might indicate a reflection on the water when it floods and these plants are partly submerged. One sees a dark greenish small reflection of the leaf on the water.

Also, if you stand above Tussilago and look down at it, you will see large older leaves and some smaller, newer leaves growing very close to the stem of the bigger leaf and it often looks like the little leaf is attached to the stem of the big one (it's an optical illusion based on the way the plant grows new leaves).

But... one cannot say for certain this is T. farfara because there are several species of Tussilago/Petasites with similar leaves.

So, I'm pretty sure it's Tussilago, but in the interests of good research, I'd like to offer one other possibility...

There is a plant called Mycelis muralis (Prenanthes muralis) which was called Sonchus in muris in the very old days which has an unusual leaf (botanists call it lyrate). The top of the leaf looks like the VMS drawing, and under the top leaf are smaller "wing" leaves. It's easier to see this in a herbarium specimen than in a live plant. If one were familiar with the leaf, it wouldn't be necessary to include the flower in the drawing, because the leaf is distinctive enough to be recognized by this drawing.

Image credit: Anneli Salo (2008), Wikimedia Commons
RE: f8r

Koen G > 12-01-2017, 09:29 PM

(just for reference - this extractor tool is pretty handy)
RE: f8r

Anton > 12-01-2017, 10:12 PM

Yes, prenanthes is also one of the options suggested by Th. Petersen.

The idea of the pool is interesting, but I'm not sure that this looks like a pool.

There might be another element of mnemonics there - note the "hook" midway to the root.
RE: f8r

-JKP- > 12-01-2017, 10:15 PM

(12-01-2017, 10:12 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yes, prenanthes is also one of the options suggested by Th. Petersen.

The idea of the pool is interesting, but I'm not sure that this looks like a pool.

There might be another element of mnemonics there - note the "hook" midway to the root.

A hook can sometimes be mnemonic (I think it probably is in some of the roots). In this case, I think the hook is where the old leaf fell off. It looks naturalistic.

If we can posit that the hook might be mnemonic, then one has to accept that the "puddle" might be mnemonic, as in "this is a plant that lives in wetlands and is often submerged".
RE: f8r

Koen G > 12-01-2017, 10:40 PM

I give the hook a good chance of being mnemonic. It might also be connected to the way the small leaf is overly obviously pierced.

Also note that the small leaf is suspiciously asymmetric, which seems like it might be important as well.
RE: f8r

Anton > 12-01-2017, 10:43 PM

Quote:In this case, I think the hook is where the old leaf fell off. It looks naturalistic.

If tussilago, then I doubt this. From what I can see, tussilago has only one leaf per sprig.
RE: f8r

Anton > 12-01-2017, 10:54 PM

And for tussilago, I can't find any appropriate mnemonics for the small leaf and the hook. In English and German, virtually all names revolve around hooves. In Russian, this is called мать-и-мачеха (= "mother-and-stepmother"), but that does not relate to two objects, it relates to two sides of the leaf.

"Tussilago" relates to cough (it cures cough), farfara is from "far ferire" - reflecting the property of the reverse side of the leaf.

Pliny discusses Tussilago in XXIV, 85, as well as XXVI, 16, but he tells only about cough and about water.

If this is Tussilago, then the small leaf and the hook are mnemonics - since they do not exist in the real plant. So if we fail to read that mnemonics then this is probably not Tussilago at all.
RE: f8r

-JKP- > 12-01-2017, 11:17 PM

You're right, Anton, if it's Tussilago, it doesn't have leaves running up the stalk. However, Petasites does but... they are not leaves, they are leaflets (they clasp the stem) and they are usually on the flower stalk, not on the petiole as shown on the VMS drawing.
RE: f8r

Linda > 13-01-2017, 08:14 AM

My current favourite for this one is okra, or Abelmoschus esculentus.

I realize the leaves are usually more palmate, but evidently proponents of their being of African origin say the highest amount of variation is found there. These baby leaves below resemble the one drawn enough that it is possible that some variety may (or may have) matched our diagram at some point in its growth cycle. Also, the points on the drawn leaf may hint toward the various numbers of lobes the plants might develop as it matures.

The fruit I see as having being drawn "growing out of the main stalk between the leaf stems". A little too literally, maybe, but the description works out pretty well when you compare it to how okra grows:

Perhaps this is why there is no flower drawn, this plant may not have grown enough to witness and draw everything properly. They knew the resulting fruit and had to place it somewhere and guessed? Or it could be that it is a purposeful obfuscation, which upon encountering the plant, one would understand and equate with the reality. I can think of no reason, however, why the flowers of other suggested species would be omitted, since it seems common to most of the diagrams to include them.

The shape of the fruit is a pretty good match other than its placement:

The roots also seem well represented:
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