Torsten > 05-02-2017, 03:58 PM
(05-02-2017, 01:55 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you take the three (EVA) letters 'e', 'o', 'l', and count the occurrences of their six permutations (in the Takahashi transcription), I think you get the following:
eol - 961
ole - 39
oel - 0
leo - 2
loe - 0
elo - 0
These numbers strongly imply that Voynichese has very strong letter adjacency rules in play: and it is surely far from coincidental that both eol and ole are the only two permutations where l immediately follows o. (For reference, 'ol' occurs 5507 times in the same transcription.)
Without any doubt, these numbers are inconsistent with auto-copying if you are trying to argue that errors introduced during autocopying are the systematic source of the random variation within Voynichese.
Torsten > 05-02-2017, 04:16 PM
(05-02-2017, 03:08 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks Nick, but don't hold your breath that Torsten will reply constructively.
Quote:I pointed out the problem of word structure to to him in 2014 after his first paper. Over two years later he still hasn't adequately responded to it, saying that the writer was free to write as he pleased within his 'concept of language'.
Quote:It's sad, but he's another Rugg with a neat answer which is all wrong.
stellar > 05-02-2017, 04:20 PM
nickpelling > 05-02-2017, 05:23 PM
(05-02-2017, 03:08 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I pointed out the problem of word structure to to him in 2014 after his first paper. Over two years later he still hasn't adequately responded to it, saying that the writer was free to write as he pleased within his 'concept of language'. I don't think he has an answer because it would spoil his theory.
nickpelling > 05-02-2017, 05:35 PM
davidjackson > 05-02-2017, 06:21 PM
Emma May Smith > 05-02-2017, 06:27 PM
(05-02-2017, 05:23 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-02-2017, 03:08 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I pointed out the problem of word structure to to him in 2014 after his first paper. Over two years later he still hasn't adequately responded to it, saying that the writer was free to write as he pleased within his 'concept of language'. I don't think he has an answer because it would spoil his theory.
As I recall, you recently mentioned cheol vs chole vs echol, which reminded me of the eol permutation thing I'd noticed a while back but had forgotten. Voynichese has plenty of similar strongly asymmetrical permutation sets, but I'm pretty sure that eol was one of the most extreme.
It's also interesting that we see all four gallows inserted in the middle of ch, but never anything else in the middle of ch. That's a rule all of its own as well, etc etc.
Torsten > 05-02-2017, 07:49 PM
(05-02-2017, 05:35 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Torsten: so what you are saying is that even though Voynichese is autocopied from itself, the "itself" from which it is autocopied (i.e. that seeds the copy) contains near-universal adjacency rules which are then preserved in the autocopying?
And that these near-universal adjacency rules that are in the 'seeding' part of the text (and then preserved in the autocopied part of the text) may or may not be language but you're not interested?
Quote:And that all the word variations arise not from a conscious attempt to produce randomness, but instead from the autocopyist assembling many small blocks that retain those near-universal adjacency rules?
Quote:So... why is it that eol is 25x more frequent than ole, again?
Torsten > 05-02-2017, 08:55 PM
(05-02-2017, 06:27 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Indeed, it is easy to point out that so many of the possible permutations that a writer could make either don't exist or occur so few times that they might be errors.
Quote:Let's take the word [chedy], which occurs about 501 times (I'm using voynichese.com for the numbers) and should be the centre of a big network of permutations. Let us agree that it has four characters [ch], [e], [d], and [y], which means there are five possible places to insert a new character. Let us further agree that the following 22 characters are part of the Voynich script: [o, y, a, e, ch, sh, k, t, f, p, ckh, cth, cfh, cph, d, s, l, r, m, n, i, q].
stellar > 05-02-2017, 09:05 PM