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The thing (80v & 82r)
- The thing (80v & 82r)
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RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
Koen G > 30-11-2016, 09:44 PM
No don't get me wrong, I just want to know for sure that we're talking about the same thing. I know sometimes my comments can seem a bit harsh but I just phrase objections that come into my mind.
So you are saying that the poses are almost like decorative elements? Kind of like when I call the nymphs mannequins?
Only, as you correctly paraphrase, I do think that the pose contributes to the message - it just tells a different part of the story than the object.
Would you say then that, if this is an enema, the meaning of this drawing is to illustrate a paragraph about its health benefits, for example, while the human figure is more of a "base" for holding the object in question? -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
VViews > 30-11-2016, 10:17 PM
Yes, at this point that is one of the possibilities I'm pursuing: that the poses are mainly decorative. The nymphs might be just a "base", as you say, at least most of the time (sometimes they are a bit more than that) in these marginal drawings of Q13.
The extent to which marginal drawings might relate to the text or how they might relate to it... now that's a whole different story. I think in some cases they might be extrapolations of things mentioned in the text, rather than practical illustrations of the actual subject matter.
This is something we find in a lot of medieval manuscript illustrations, especially marginalia, in the 13th, 14th and until the mid 15th century.
But I'm getting OT as this doesn't really relate to the Thing. I'll get more into the issue of marginalia and poses on the blog or in a different thread as soon as possible, but surely not for a couple of days. -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
Koen G > 30-11-2016, 10:56 PM
VV: I know you have spent a lot of time studying the poses and forming a conclusion about them, and I think I'd agree with at least part of it, especially when it comes to them being somewhat limited and formalised, fr lack of a better word.
I wouldn't say this is off topic though. The surroundings of and object might tell us as much about it as the object itself. We may not know for sure whether they do, but in order to identify an object, an analysis of the situation in which it is found is as good an approach as any.
Let's say we ignore the pose. I see the pose as mostly symbolical as well. But there is another problem. The figure is surrounded by an impressive set of cloud bands. In the other thread, there was an unusual amount of agreement about the significance of these lines. In general a border between realms, and in the medieval context mostly with a heavenly connotation or at least a form of exaltation. Can you understand why I find the proposal of an enema the most problematic one so far? -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
VViews > 30-11-2016, 11:44 PM
Koen Gh,
I agree with you about the question of the cloud band context remaining unresolved for the moment. Also, although it was a way of representing the border of the heavenly realm, the Voynich artist could have borrowed/copied the cloudband motif to represent steam: personally, if I were to draw steam I would draw it a lot like I draw clouds. But I say that without much conviction that this is what's going on at all.
In the context of a section which reputedly discusses balneology and other physiological/therapeutic topics, an enema would make quite a lot of sense.
However, I want insist on the fact that I want to keep an open mind about what the Thing might be. Enema? Maybe, but there are a few other very valid possibilties. And it could be some other object as well.
And finally regarding cloudbands and the Thing, I'd like to put up a warning here about the perils of googling "enema heaven", as I unfortunately just did...
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RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
ReneZ > 01-12-2016, 08:19 AM
(30-11-2016, 09:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But if these two objects are the same, then that would imply that the lady on the left is holding the cross of Jesus, and the one on the right is holding between her very finger tips the part of the Thing that goes into people's rectums
[picture deleted]
I don't see a big problem with that.
One is related to cleansing the soul and the other to cleansing the body.
Doctors and bath attendants could be religious and handle both, I suppose.
In addition, the smell of sulfuric baths is probably significantly worse than that of
applying an enema.... -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
Koen G > 01-12-2016, 08:25 AM
(01-12-2016, 08:19 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Doctors and bath attendants could be religious and handle both, I suppose.
Why is the enema-holder surrounded by cloud bands though? Are there any other examples of it surrounding something like this? I wouldn't exactly call the scene in the Balneis "heavenly". -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
VViews > 01-12-2016, 09:23 AM
Koen Gh,
I don't know what was going on in the artist's mind, but look at the file you shared from Don in the Wolkenband thread: if cloudbands can be used to draw tablecloth edges, anything's possible.
Looking at the actual patterns under the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. nymph, it's much more than just a cloudband: there's two concentric layers of cloudbands separated by vertical dashes, and a recurring but so far unexplained pattern underneath (straight lines - dots - wavy lines).
In my opinion these features can't just be neatly filed away as a basic heavenly/divine wolkenband: there is something else going on here. -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
Koen G > 01-12-2016, 10:15 AM
(01-12-2016, 09:23 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my opinion these features can't just be neatly filed away as a basic heavenly/divine wolkenband: there is something else going on here.
Yes that is true, most certainly. Even Don though, in the larger version of his file, admitted that the nebuly tablecloths were false positives. They are a very specific drawing style where folds in clothing are drawn in a somewhat similar way, but those can be very easily recognized.
I explain the features of the entire base as integrating some poetic elements attributed to the constellation, or rather her location. With "poetic elements", I mean the words and phrases often used by popular classical authors, like Ovid, who remained popular during the middle ages.
They think of the Northern celestial pole much like we imagine the North Pole on earth: frozen, stormy, snowy, cold, icy. The constellation Draco, a serpent which also resides on the pole, is said to be curved because it froze while twisting in pain because of the cold.
Add to that the fact that Cynosura - one of the several women who is said to have become one of the Bears constellations, depending on which version of the myths you read - was placed at the pinnacle of heaven, the part of the celestial sphere that never even comes close to the ocean.
So the elements we read again and again, is that she is placed on a high (in fact, the highest!) frozen, stormy location.
I'm not going to claim that I understand every line and dot in this image, but I think I can offer a reasonable explanation for it, that fits within a "poetic" depiction of Cynosura at the Pole.
The double band of wavy lines means the very pinnacle of the heavens. The vertical lines between them and beneath the bottom one are likely meant to evoke the appearance of cliffs, again playing in to the "pinnacle" and altitude trope (the thought of mount Olympus in classical works might have contributed somewhat to this). When Cynosura is placed among the stars, she gains the status of a goddess.
Under the vertical lines are two bands, one with dots and one with colored, wiggly vertical lines. The dots might represent the snowy weather associated with (and emerging from) the pole. The bottom band seems to evoke storm, lightning, perhaps icy spikes.
So what we get is a somewhat poetic depiction of the constellation. Each aspect of the image is in line with the tropes used by classical authors who were still read many centuries later.
Of course allowing for such a reading requires one to take a step back from a literal "balneis" interpretation, which, as I understand, is currently the preferred paradigm among many of our colleagues. -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
MarcoP > 01-12-2016, 11:42 AM
Here is some speculation.
These are some possible explanations for an enema appearing next to the cross of Christ.
1) The visual representation of a medical charm. We know that charms included the sign of the cross together with properly medical elements.
2) Some kind of exorcism. The enema could be symbolic and illustrating some kind of purification.
3) A witch ritual. One of the meanings of naked women in medieval art was “witches”.
In my opinion, the most likely is option 1, because the naked women cannot be Christian priestesses and it's unlikely they are witches (I can't see anything clearly “Satanic”). In this case, the wolkenband could be hinting to the metaphorical nature of the naked women (they represent other entities than actual people). E.g. the healing power of the cross, the healing power of the enema.
I don't think we are dealing with a literally balneological subject, but I also think the similarity with balneological manuscripts is conspicuous and not accidental: the subject is not exactly the same, but might be something related. For instance (this has often been proposed) it might be some kind of illustration of physiological principles personified as “nymphs”; in this case, the “enema” might be an instance of a “pump” representing pressure in corporeal fluids (at the moment, I have no specific idea of the possible meaning of the Christian cross in this context).
My personal opinion it that also the difference of this section from XV Century manuscript illustrations of the constellations is conspicuous and not accidental. -
RE: The thing (80v & 82r)
VViews > 01-12-2016, 11:51 AM
(01-12-2016, 11:42 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.in this case, the “enema” might be an instance of a “pump” representing pressure in corporeal fluids (at the moment, I have no specific idea of the possible meaning of the Christian cross in this context).
Yes, I agree completely: this is exactly the type of "extrapolation" of things mentioned in the text that I believe is going on.
Maybe not this one specifically, but this is the type of process I think leads to what we see in the marginalia.