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• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  MarcoP > 30-11-2016, 01:24 PM

  (28-11-2016, 06:20 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Marco:
  
  Thx for that. So stema = stemma = chaplet or garland. But does that mean the crown of thorns of Christ? Has the word "stemma" been in use to designate that?
  
  Actually what I try to ascertain is what of the three things do the alternating sticks/pipes represent:
  
  - nails
  - crown of thorns
  - cross in motion
  
  The verse seems to be intended to explain that, but clarity was sacrificed to poetry.
  
  However imperfect is my Latin, I find the English translation unsatisfactory as well. At least I'm acquainted with "Sator Arepo Tenet Opera Rotas" Sso "tenet" is 3rd person present, and not past tense.

  
  Hi Anton,
  I have been unable to find “stema” or “stemma” for Christ's crown of thorns.
  On the other hand, there are examples in which the cross is said to be “stemma Christi” the emblem or device of Christ (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  
  It had previously escaped to me that “positio” is nominative and must be the subject of the sentence. 
  I have also found that there is an alternative version/transcription with “fixae” instead of “fixi”.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  O quam pulchrum stema tenet clavorum positio 
  crucis Christi rotae fixae hoc in orologio, 
  in qua ipse carne pendens pro salute hominum.
  
  My attempt at a translation:
  The position of the nails of the cross of Christ fixed to the wheel in this clock keeps [makes?] oh such a beautiful garland [emblem?], in which [cross] he [is] hanging by [his] flesh for the salvation of men.
  
  I interpret “fixae” as a singular genitive linked with “crucis”.  
  “rotae” as singular locative.
  As you say, “clarity was sacrificed to poetry”, but at least this makes sense grammatically (while I don't know what to do with “fixi”).
  
  See also the comment You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: 
  It is very likely that the horologium has been provided with an illustration of the crucifixion accompanied by the semi-figures of what must be Sol and Luna under the influence of another passage of this poem (possibly itself influenced by a picture): “O quam publchrum stema...”

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  Anton > 30-11-2016, 01:52 PM

  Quote:I have also found that there is an alternative version/transcription with “fixae” instead of “fixi”.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  The first source simply refers to the Wiesenbach's article
  The second one refers to the same Vat. Lat. 644.
  
  But everyone can look and see that the MS says "fixi", not "fixe" or "fixae". While "e" in "rote" has a tail which probably serves for the abbreviation of "ae", in "fixi" it is clear "i", and not "e". Although medieval writers and scribes did not always exhibit 100% perfect Latin, I see no reason why one needs to imply "fixae". "Fixi" is the perfect of "figo", either 1st person singular active, or plural passive (see Verbix). There's no 1st or 2nd person here, so we turn to the plural 3rd person. "Rotae" is probably precisely that, because other declensions of "rota" ending with "ae" would be genitive or dative, which do not fit the context in which "crux" is also inflected.
  
  So the reading of the 2nd line seems to mean that "thus <hoc> the wheels <rotae> of the Christ's cross <crucis Christi> have been fixed <fixi> in the clock <in orologio>".
  
  

  Quote:I interpret “fixae” as a singular genitive linked with “crucis”.

  
  So in this reading "fixae" is a noun? Which one?

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  MarcoP > 30-11-2016, 01:55 PM

  (27-11-2016, 09:16 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's an interesting turn, I began to read the latin text here (f76r):
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  I had another look at the illustration you linked.
  I think A and S on the wheel's spikes relate to Aequinotia and Solstitia (the left A was apparently misplaced). So the twelve long spikes mark intervals of 30 degrees corresponding to the zodiacal signs. Short marks split each sign in two, creating intervals corresponding to the 24 hours (as the text says, this is some kind of clock).
  Possibly, the cross formed by the lines connecting equinox and solstice points suggested the image of the cross of Christ.

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  Anton > 30-11-2016, 02:08 PM

  Quote:It had previously escaped to me that “positio” is nominative and must be the subject of the sentence.

  
  Not necessarily nominative; and if it's the subject then it is not clear what stema is, because the form "stema" is either nominative or ablative, and if ablative, it does not fit the context.
  

  ---

  Quote:Possibly, the cross formed by the lines connecting equinox and solstice points suggested the image of the cross of Christ.

  
  Yes, that's also what Wiesenbach argues in his footnote.
  
  Actually what I try to do is to link the poem and the chart together. If the divisions are simply divisions, then why the poem speaks of "clavorum" explicitly?

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  MarcoP > 30-11-2016, 02:16 PM

  (30-11-2016, 01:52 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Quote:I have also found that there is an alternative version/transcription with “fixae” instead of “fixi”.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  The first source simply refers to the Wiesenbach's article
  The second one refers to the same Vat. Lat. 644.

  
  The second one refers to Val. Lat. 644 in the footnote, saying that there it is "fixi". The main source of that transcription (with "fixae") is likely some other manuscript.
  
  The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. refers to Reg. Lat. 1263 and Reg. Lat. 309, but apparently scans for these ms are not available.
  
  

  Quote:But everyone can look and see that the MS says "fixi", not "fixe" or "fixae". While "e" in "rote" has a tail which probably serves for the abbreviation of "ae", in "fixi" it is clear "i", and not "e". Although medieval writers and scribes did not always exhibit 100% perfect Latin, I see no reason why one needs to imply "fixae". "Fixi" is the perfect of "figo", either 1st person singular active, or plural passive (see Verbix). There's no 1st or 2nd person here, so we turn to the plural 3rd person. "Rotae" is probably precisely that, because other declensions of "rota" ending with "ae" would be genitive or dative, which do not fit the context in which "crux" is also inflected.
  
  So the reading of the 2nd line seems to mean that "thus <hoc> the wheels <rotae> of the Christ's cross <crucis Christi> have been fixed <fixi> in the clock <in orologio>".

  
  "Rotae" and "fixi" do not agree. It should be "rotae fixae". E.g. the wheels have been fixed: rotae fixae [sunt]. "Fixi" cannot apply to a feminine noun.
  
  

  Quote:

  Quote:I interpret “fixae” as a singular genitive linked with “crucis”.

  
  So in this reading "fixae" is a noun? Which one?

  
  Fixae cannot be a noun. I interpret "fixae" as a genitive, feminine, singular adjective (or past participle) applying to the genitive, feminine, singular noun "crucis". "fixae crucis" "of the cross fixed [to the wheel of the clock]".
  As the English "fixed" that can be seen as an adjective or a form or the verb to fix, with the same meaning. 
  In Latin, adjective and noun must agree in gender, number and case.

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  Anton > 30-11-2016, 02:26 PM

  Quote:"Rotae" and "fixi" do not agree. It should be "rotae fixae". E.g. the wheels have been fixed: rotae fixae [sunt]. "Fixi" cannot apply to a feminine noun.

  
  I consulted Verbix, it says "fixi sunt", not "fixae sunt". Is that wrong?

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  MarcoP > 30-11-2016, 02:30 PM

  (30-11-2016, 02:08 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Quote:It had previously escaped to me that “positio” is nominative and must be the subject of the sentence.

  
  Not necessarily nominative; and if it's the subject then it is not clear what stema is, because the form "stema" is either nominative or ablative, and if ablative, it does not fit the context.

  
  What else can "positio" be but nominative? 
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. gives singular accusative for stema. It seems to me to fit.

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  MarcoP > 30-11-2016, 02:35 PM

  (30-11-2016, 02:26 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  Quote:"Rotae" and "fixi" do not agree. It should be "rotae fixae". E.g. the wheels have been fixed: rotae fixae [sunt]. "Fixi" cannot apply to a feminine noun.

  
  I consulted Verbix, it says "fixi sunt", not "fixae sunt". Is that wrong?

  
  "rotae fixi sunt"? My opinion is that it's wrong.
  
  "viri fixi sunt" is OK, the past participle behaves like an adjective and must agree in gender, number and case.

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  Koen G > 30-11-2016, 03:14 PM

  (30-11-2016, 01:55 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think A and S on the wheel's spikes relate to Aequinotia and Solstitia (the left A was apparently misplaced). So the twelve long spikes mark intervals of 30 degrees corresponding to the zodiacal signs. Short marks split each sign in two, creating intervals corresponding to the 24 hours (as the text says, this is some kind of clock).
  Possibly, the cross formed by the lines connecting equinox and solstice points suggested the image of the cross of Christ.

  
  Thank you Marco, this clarifies things to me a bit. Someone mentioned earlier that there were attempts to make the study of the stars seem like a proper thing for Christians to do. Might the references to Christ be read in that context perhaps?
  
  
  Your saying "this is a clock" reminded me that our clocks also have long and short spikes, though the intervals are different. Maybe this isn't so weird at all.
  
  

• RE: The Voynich Pipes

  MarcoP > 30-11-2016, 03:35 PM

  (30-11-2016, 03:14 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (30-11-2016, 01:55 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think A and S on the wheel's spikes relate to Aequinotia and Solstitia (the left A was apparently misplaced). So the twelve long spikes mark intervals of 30 degrees corresponding to the zodiacal signs. Short marks split each sign in two, creating intervals corresponding to the 24 hours (as the text says, this is some kind of clock).
  Possibly, the cross formed by the lines connecting equinox and solstice points suggested the image of the cross of Christ.

  
  Thank you Marco, this clarifies things to me a bit. Someone mentioned earlier that there were attempts to make the study of the stars seem like a proper thing for Christians to do. Might the references to Christ be read in that context perhaps?
  
  
  Your saying "this is a clock" reminded me that our clocks also have long and short spikes, though the intervals are different. Maybe this isn't so weird at all.

  
  Hi Koen,
  yes, my opinion is that the circle in the image represents a clock.
  See also the illustration You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (with 12 spikes).
  
  I think Anton has put the question very clearly here:
  

  (28-11-2016, 06:20 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually what I try to ascertain is what of the three things do the alternating sticks/pipes represent:
  
  - nails
  - crown of thorns
  - cross in motion
  
  The verse seems to be intended to explain that, but clarity was sacrificed to poetry.

  
  I can't say I have an answer. I think there are no references to the crown of thorns, but I am uncertain about the nails and the cross.
  Possibly this is a "moralization" of the clock, as you seem to suggest ("to make the study of the stars seem like a proper thing for Christians to do"). The details of this moralization are still unclear. I think it could be a reference to the four "cardinal" spikes as the four nails on the cross (counting the top "INRI" nail), but maybe there is more to it or it's something entirely different.
  It's difficult to come to a definite interpretation of these verses. 
  
  Coming back to the VMS, I think numbers (12 / 24) are very relevant here. The Voynich pipes illustration has different numbers (28) and different "markers" (pipes instead of "nails"). So I think the Voynich illustration is unrelated to these "clocks", but in the most generic sense of being some kind of cosmological diagram illustrating divisions of the "whole" (the circle). But, as always, who knows?
  
  Examples like this are very instructive to me, because they remember how difficult it is to make sense of medieval images and texts even when I can read the alphabet and have a basic knowledge of the language.
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