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The Voynich Pipes
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RE: The Voynich Pipes
Anton > 27-11-2016, 08:39 PM
Quote:The paper doesn't give any explanation as for why the pipes alternate in length. Maybe just to make them easier to count?
That sounds good
But maybe there is an explanation inside the very Vat. lat. 644. -
RE: The Voynich Pipes
Koen G > 27-11-2016, 08:44 PM
Anton: about eight vs 24, I just meant that if a system works with 24 parts, it can be easily used with 8 as well. One section would just count for three hours instead of one. -
RE: The Voynich Pipes
Anton > 27-11-2016, 08:51 PM
Judging by that the passage in Vat. lat. 644 begins in the same way as the Venetian library MS:
Spera caeli quater senis horis dum revoluitur
one can say that they liked 4x6 rather than 3x8. -
RE: The Voynich Pipes
Anton > 27-11-2016, 09:16 PM
There's an interesting turn, I began to read the latin text here (f76r):
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And it appears that those are not pipes, but nails
O quam pulchrum stema tenet clavorum positio
crucis Christi rote fixi hoc inoro logio
in qua ipse carne pendens pro salute hominum
And all the text is like the verse, probably for ease of memorization.
Now, remember that VMBOK discussion about the alleged absence of Christian symbolism in the VMS? If that were approved, we would have been deceived by the awkwardness of medieval authors in depicting nails.
And, being nails, it is of course clear why they are of different length. (Alternation is for sheer symmetry, I suppose.) -
RE: The Voynich Pipes
Anton > 27-11-2016, 11:50 PM
It appears that Wiesenbach in his article provides the reading and the German translation of this verse.
The correct reading is "in orologio", not "inoro logio" (the scribe was as careless with spaces as the scribe of the VMS was), where "orologio" stands for "horologio", i.e. clock.
The translation suggested is:
Quote:"Oh, welch schönen Kranz bildet die Ordnung der Nägel von Christi Kreuz, bei dieser Uhr der Scheibe aufgeheftet - des Kreuzes, an dem jener im Fleische hing für das Heil der Menschheit."
The footnote says:
Quote:"Gemeint ist: Vier Nägel oder Punkte, die der Unterteilung der Scheibe dienen, erinnern an ein Kreuz, und dieses Kreuz ist der Scheibe aufgeheftet vorzustellen, nicht Christus selbst."
I see problems with this translation though. First, it is not clear what "stema" is. It is translated as "Kranz" (wreath). Is that OK?
Second, the translator misses (although recognizes) that the whole stuff is a verse, where each line is more or less autonomous (there are actually periods in the end of lines). So "die Ordnung der Nägel von Christi Kreuz" - there's simply no such expression in the Latin text. The first line says that "stema" holds the position of nails (not "nails of Christ's cross"). Although the nails actually are of the cross, of course, it is only in the second line that the cross appears.
Third, I think the translator misses what is "aufgeheftet" by what. "Crucis" is genitive, so "crucis Christi rote (rotae)" stands for "the wheel of the Christ's cross", and it is nails ("clavorum") from the first line that fix ("fixi") this wheel in the clock ("orologio"). The positions of the nails themselves are held by "stema".
That's how I interpret that. Am I right or wrong?
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RE: The Voynich Pipes
MarcoP > 28-11-2016, 03:09 PM
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RE: The Voynich Pipes
stellar > 28-11-2016, 03:49 PM
(27-11-2016, 11:50 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It appears that Wiesenbach in his article provides the reading and the German translation of this verse.
Hi all,
The correct reading is "in orologio", not "inoro logio" (the scribe was as careless with spaces as the scribe of the VMS was), where "orologio" stands for "horologio", i.e. clock.
The translation suggested is:
Quote:"Oh, welch schönen Kranz bildet die Ordnung der Nägel von Christi Kreuz, bei dieser Uhr der Scheibe aufgeheftet - des Kreuzes, an dem jener im Fleische hing für das Heil der Menschheit."
The footnote says:
Quote:"Gemeint ist: Vier Nägel oder Punkte, die der Unterteilung der Scheibe dienen, erinnern an ein Kreuz, und dieses Kreuz ist der Scheibe aufgeheftet vorzustellen, nicht Christus selbst."
I see problems with this translation though. First, it is not clear what "stema" is. It is translated as "Kranz" (wreath). Is that OK?
Second, the translator misses (although recognizes) that the whole stuff is a verse, where each line is more or less autonomous (there are actually periods in the end of lines). So "die Ordnung der Nägel von Christi Kreuz" - there's simply no such expression in the Latin text. The first line says that "stema" holds the position of nails (not "nails of Christ's cross"). Although the nails actually are of the cross, of course, it is only in the second line that the cross appears.
Third, I think the translator misses what is "aufgeheftet" by what. "Crucis" is genitive, so "crucis Christi rote (rotae)" stands for "the wheel of the Christ's cross", and it is nails ("clavorum") from the first line that fix ("fixi") this wheel in the clock ("orologio"). The positions of the nails themselves are held by "stema".
That's how I interpret that. Am I right or wrong?
In the upper right hand corner, there is a VMS Paragraph for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which may relate to f69v. I applied my cipher to it and this is what I was able to read. This may imply knowledge in the past from other worldly paranormal intellects.
Quote:The 7 seals contained secret information known only to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. until the Lamb/Lion was found worthy to open the scroll and to look on the contents.
Important scrolls being secured with seals is mentioned in earlier Bible examples including You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 12:4
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Simply click on a word or phrase and it will show the code behind the word or phrase. Then do a search for the terms using the find in your upper right google find bar for the phrase or search word in the Gematria list of words and phrases. The code word corresponds from the letters to the voynich glyph’s in my cipher from the Pythagorean Voynich Gematria chart.
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[font=Merriweather, Georgia, serif]![[Image: gematria-cipher-voynich-tom-oneil-2016-november-251.png]](https://voynichnumerology.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/gematria-cipher-voynich-tom-oneil-2016-november-251.png)
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RE: The Voynich Pipes
Anton > 28-11-2016, 06:20 PM
@Marco:
Thx for that. So stema = stemma = chaplet or garland. But does that mean the crown of thorns of Christ? Has the word "stemma" been in use to designate that?
Actually what I try to ascertain is what of the three things do the alternating sticks/pipes represent:
- nails
- crown of thorns
- cross in motion
The verse seems to be intended to explain that, but clarity was sacrificed to poetry.
However imperfect is my Latin, I find the English translation unsatisfactory as well. At least I'm acquainted with "Sator Arepo Tenet Opera Rotas" Sso "tenet" is 3rd person present, and not past tense.
@stellar - the chart in question is not clock or daily motion, because the number of "pipes" or "nails" is 28, not 24. So I'm afraid that paragraph is irrelevant, at least as it is in your translation. -
RE: The Voynich Pipes
Diane > 29-11-2016, 05:00 AM
Dear Members,
I'm sorry that I haven't time to read all the previous contributions to this thread, so if my own observations duplicate earlier ones, my apologies. In any case, I've already said this in various posts to the research blog (2008-2010) and some again on voynichimagery.
The first point I'd make is that where the centre or apex (marked by the star-fish looking thing) refers to the highest geographical point when it appears in the previous folio - which I have described as being a description of the qanat system - here we see the 'apex' as the centre of the heavens. In juxtaposition, then, I should expect that while the first describes the bringing of waters from below the ground, this next describes the pattern of waters from above during each of the 28 months of certain eastern agricultural calendars which - as I've been letting people know since 2010 - are often named by the sequence of asterisms known to the west as the lunar mansions. I noted when skimming some of the earlier responses that now Rene and others are less uncomfortable with this idea than was the case in earlier years. Another cause for thanks all around.
However, I should be inclined to think that the 'labels' would be more likely to refer to the month than to the asterism as such - though one cannot say certainly.
And once more I'd refer readers to sources which they might not think to consult if the have held a theory that all the content in the manuscript is the product of Latin Christian culture or (less often today) a single Latin Christian author.
I'd suggest perhaps beginning from Al-Biruni's India and even the Brht Samhita which influenced his understanding of meteorology and of weather omens. The Indian nakshatras are argued by some as the origin of the Arabs' lunar mansions.
On the calendars, texts and essays by Serjeant and then by Varisco remain the chief references.
Then, for more detailed vocabulary and explanations, perhaps Ibn Majid's work (translated by Tibbetts as 'Arab Navigation in the Indian Ocean before the Coming of the Portuguese).
Those interested in the Chinese side of things will also find in the 1971 edition an informative essay by Joseph Needham.
The series of 28, in combination with depiction of the astronomical 'apex' here, and the diagram's following that which I identify as a description of the qanat, strongly suggests to me that the content is meteorological, to do with seasonal rains and/or likelihood of storms, and that the interest will be less in the seasonal rains of agriculture than those which affect one place or another in the traders' maritime circuits. But this last, of course, is no more than an initial suggestion and in the normal way I wouildn't mention it before doing the in-depth research myself.
No chance of that in the foreseeable future, but I do wish Anton and all other members heaps of good luck. -
RE: The Voynich Pipes
ReneZ > 29-11-2016, 09:59 AM
(29-11-2016, 05:00 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm sorry that I haven't time to read all the previous contributions to this thread, [...]
[...] as I've been letting people know since 2010 - are often named by the sequence of asterisms known to the west as the lunar mansions. I noted when skimming some of the earlier responses that now Rene and others are less uncomfortable with this idea than was the case in earlier years. Another cause for thanks all around.
You may have missed the part where it was explained that discussions about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the mansions of the moon took place in 2001, and are also found in D'Imperio (1978).