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Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

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• Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  Koen G > 18-12-2016, 11:00 PM

  And we are still ignoring the major problem that people in the 15th century, and indeed even in the days of Voynich himself, did not use the exact spelling and vocabulary as the words produced by this website. Even if we allow for the higly unlikey scenario that Voynich produced the whole thing himself, it cannot be in modern English. This site suggests certain words which Voynich would have spelled differently or worse, which did not exist yet in his time, let alone the 15th century.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  stellar > 19-12-2016, 12:01 AM

  I really do think this particular cipher I came up with has promise.  I decided to target an alchemy section of the VMS to see if the cipher would produce words related to Alchemy.  Most VMS people refer to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as as the alchemy section.
  
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• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  ThomasCoon > 19-12-2016, 01:59 AM

  Have you given any consideration to the point I raised earlier, Stellar? I already showed that Gematria can produce dozens of narratives in any language, and dozens of readings for these labels too (even things related to the elements).
  
  Also important: You look at images and their labels to prove your theory, but what about the pages that have no images? Koen showed he can make very interesting sentences from just 8 words, and I showed I can make many long, cohesive narratives. Doesn't this strike you as a huge problem - hundreds of readings are possible for any paragraph.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  stellar > 19-12-2016, 02:05 AM

  (19-12-2016, 01:59 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Have you given any consideration to the point I raised earlier, Stellar? I already showed that Gematria can produce dozens of narratives in any language, and dozens of readings for these labels too (even things related to the elements).
  
  Also important: You look at images and their labels to prove your theory, but what about the pages that have no images? Koen showed he can make very interesting sentences from just 8 words, and I showed I can make many long, cohesive narratives. Doesn't this strike you as a huge problem - hundreds of readings are possible for any paragraph.

  
  There is no way to prove this method Coon yet that does not imply its wrong or right.  The fact that you found Water Lily Plant in the first 3 words of the VMS Water Lily folio gives me a feeling that this method can bear fruit for translation yet speculative.  As more labels are found this will give me hope.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  Koen G > 19-12-2016, 06:11 AM

  Stellar, how do you explain that your translation is in modern English vocabulary and spelling? For example, the website offers the word AIDS as a possible translation, yet we know that this word has been invented as late as 1982. 
  
  Your method doesn't include a step where it is checked whether the words and spelling existed in the 15th century. So if one were to believe that your system is valid, one would also have to believe thatthe MS was made in the late 20th century. 
  
  Sorry for being harsh, but this is a massive problem we cannot keep ignoring. If you believe the MS to be made in thr 15th century, you have to use 15th century spelling and vocabulary. And if you think it is a forgery by Voynich, you still cannot rely blindly on this site because it includes words which did not exist yet in Voynich' day.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  davidjackson > 19-12-2016, 07:58 AM

  Dee was 16th century, just to complicate matters.....

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  bunny > 19-12-2016, 10:46 AM

  (19-12-2016, 06:11 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, how do you explain that your translation is in modern English vocabulary and spelling? For example, the website offers the word AIDS as a possible translation, yet we know that this word has been invented as late as 1982. 
  
  Your method doesn't include a step where it is checked whether the words and spelling existed in the 15th century. So if one were to believe that your system is valid, one would also have to believe thatthe MS was made in the late 20th century. 
  
  Sorry for being harsh, but this is a massive problem we cannot keep ignoring. If you believe the MS to be made in thr 15th century, you have to use 15th century spelling and vocabulary. And if you think it is a forgery by Voynich, you still cannot rely blindly on this site because it includes words which did not exist yet in Voynich' day.

  
  Ok butting in again here, sorry.
  There is an explanation for the modern vocabulary but that will come later.
  
  And to Stellar your work IS very accurate so don't be put off. 
  
  In the meantime I have translated the words fully at the top of the table put forward earlier without reference to the table, using my own method (has been described years ago so not going into it here).  It does unexpectedly however confirm Stellar's table of words and a set 7 words can be pulled out which are confirmed by the translation.  They are consistent with Stellar's work and his work is consistent with the common tread I mention.  In fact his work is more comprehensive than any I have seen in this matter.
  
  I will put the translation and words pulled from his list later today when time.  It will not be the same as Stellar's choice because the manuscript allows different aspects to be seen.  It is factual and given the full word list a whole history could be pulled out.  This is not the mainstream academic approach be warned, but it is no ordinary manuscript, C15th or otherwise.
  
  Bunny

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  -JKP- > 19-12-2016, 02:50 PM

  (19-12-2016, 10:46 AM)bunny Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.bunny wrote: And to Stellar your work IS very accurate so don't be put off. 
  
  Bunny, I don't know how you can make a determination that it is accurate without knowing what is actually in the manuscript and without even knowing if there is meaning intended in the text. Even if there is meaning, you don't know which language was used—there are many other languages that bear a closer resemblance to the VMS structure than English.
  
  
  
  bunny wrote: I will put the translation and words pulled from his list later today when time.  It will not be the same as Stellar's choice because the manuscript allows different aspects to be seen.  It is factual and given the full word list a whole history could be pulled out.  This is not the mainstream academic approach be warned, but it is no ordinary manuscript, C15th or otherwise.
  
  I also don't know how you can determine that the translation is "factual". In addition to making a number of unsupported assumptions, you have made several pejorative statements about academic approaches and scientific method, but usually it's necessary to understand those methods before you pass judgment on them.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  ThomasCoon > 20-12-2016, 12:18 AM

  (19-12-2016, 02:05 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is no way to prove this method Coon yet that does not imply its wrong or right. 

  
  Alright, I'll concede that - ultimately there's no way to say this isn't what the writer had in mind, but I think this would be an extremely problematic cipher, and the creator would have discovered that really quick. There are at least 324 paragraphs of "recipes" towards the back of the book, with no pictures. What happens if the author forgets what paragraph 58 says, or 144, or 271, or 310? He literally has to try 200+ entries for the first word and all following words.
  
  I also agree with Koen that Middle English would have to be used.

• RE: Lament from the Sea, New Method! f2r

  stellar > 20-12-2016, 12:51 AM

  (20-12-2016, 12:18 AM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (19-12-2016, 02:05 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There is no way to prove this method Coon yet that does not imply its wrong or right. 

  
  Alright, I'll concede that - ultimately there's no way to say this isn't what the writer had in mind, but I think this would be an extremely problematic cipher, and the creator would have discovered that really quick. There are at least 324 paragraphs of "recipes" towards the back of the book, with no pictures. What happens if the author forgets what paragraph 58 says, or 144, or 271, or 310? He literally has to try 200+ entries for the first word and all following words.
  
  I also agree with Koen that Middle English would have to be used.

  
  Maybe he understood his cipher to be a language, but the problem there would be when two VMS vords used the same glyphs with different meanings.  Perhaps the glyph may indicate a different word meaning like the 9's with a different descender. Yes some words do have to be reworked to fit middle English, but not many which I have decoded.
  
  This image I'm uploading is part of the Zodiac of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the words in red do correspond to a Zodiac according to my cipher.
  
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