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RE: f57v
Jorge_Stolfi > 19-09-2025, 02:16 AM
(27-03-2024, 08:21 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Has any argument been presented that would refute the claim that "dairol" is the Pole star / North Star (Polaris)?
I can't refute that argument. But I can't see any reason to think it would be. In fact, nothing in this page suggests that it is about astronomy, astrology, or celestial navigation.
In fact, AFAIK this page is assigned to the "Cosmo" section only because it has a diagram with concentric rings of text, like most other pages of Cosmo.
Instead I can offer another theory for that lone word outside the diagram.
First, some objective observations:
The diagram has four rings of text, R1 to R4 from the outside in.
(Ring R2 is the 4x17 sequence.)
Faint radial lines, roughly aligned with each other but not with the
diagram's center, run across the bands of these four text rings, from
circle to circle, passing through word gaps. The line across R1 is at
~10:10, that across R4 is at ~09:45. Ring R2 has two parallel
strokes ~1 mm apart, while those across the other rings are single.
All strokes are tilted ~20° CW from the radial direction.
The three innermost rings R2, R3, and R4 have extra-wide word gaps
surrounding these radial lines. The outermost ring R1 does not have
such gap. At ~10:45 there is a sudden reduction in "font size" between
the words v,sa,l,y and saeas (or soeos). The o-height changes from
~2 mm to ~1 mm and the nib width changes from ~0.6 mm to ~0.35 mm.
The o-height then increases gradually as one goes CW from that point,
being ~1.3 mm at ~06:00 and ~1.7 mm at ~10:00.
There is a similar reduction of font size at the start of ring R3,
which similarly recovers along the ring.
Now the speculation:
The starting point for reading the text rings R1-R4 has traditionally
been assumed to be the faint single or double radial line crossing
each band in the NW sector. For rings R2-R4, this choice seems pretty
safe since each of those rings has an extra-wide word space crossed by
the corresponding radial line.
There is no similar gap in ring R1 around its radial line, but label
L1 (dairal) outside the diagram, at 10:15, has traditionally been
interpreted as a title or "start here" key, confirming that the start
of the text is the v just after the radial line. However, the drastic
and sudden reduction in "font" size at about 10:45, by almost 50%,
makes it more likely that the start of R1 is actually at that transition.
The similar reduction of font size at the start of ring R3 seems to
confirm this interpretation.
Then label L1 is probably the last word of ring R1 -- placed outside
the diagram because the Scribe miscalculated and ran out of space at
the end of that text ring. A hack that he apparently used also
on some Zodiac pages, when he ran out of space for the nymphs
inside the diagram.
That would confirm the suspicion that the radial strokes across the
text rings are not original, but additions by a later reader who made
the same incorrect assumption about the R1 starting point that we have
been making all along.
All the best, --jorge -
RE: f57v
JoJo_Jost > 17-11-2025, 05:03 PM
A few thoughts and questions about 57v
1. I think it is already known that the glyphs on the second circle are exactly opposite each other when viewed from the outside. In my opinion, this only makes sense if these discs are used as rotating discs, as has already been shown here. Or does the division into 4 * 17 characters inevitably lead to them being opposite each other?
What surprises me, however, is that the circles are painted very perfectly. But I wonder: if you connect the opposite glyphs, they do not meet in the middle, but the center point is slightly below the middle. Okay, what is the reason for this pole shift? Were these glyphs drawn without guide lines, without a ruler? After all, it would have been easy to do so. Did a copier perhaps not notice that they were opposite each other?
2. On the inner circle, we see most of the glyphs from the second circle again, with 4/5 words on the left side. But it is striking that aiin and ar (possibly or), which are very frequently used “words,” also appear where normal glyphs would normally be. Does that mean they are essentially encrypted letters?
3. If we imagine the entire system not as a disc but as a three-dimensional construction - so half a sphere, with the inner circle at the far back, it could (note the subjunctive) perhaps be that the correspondences make more sense when rotated. We would then be dealing with an encryption from the inside out, with letters to syllables, syllables to letters, letters to syllables. Very difficult. -
RE: f57v
Jorge_Stolfi > 18-11-2025, 12:15 AM
(17-11-2025, 05:03 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A few thoughts and questions about 57v 1. I think it is already known that the glyphs on the second circle are exactly opposite each other when viewed from the outside. In my opinion, this only makes sense if these discs are used as rotating discs, as has already been shown here. Or does the division into 4 * 17 characters inevitably lead to them being opposite each other?
If the glyphs were equally spaced along the circle, of course the occurrences each glyph would be 90 degrees apart, so they would be paired at 180 degrees apart. However they are not. The angles between occurrences of the o glyph, measured from the center of the circles, are 97, 87, 88, 88. And they are different from other glyphs. As a result, as you noted the lines through matching glyphs don't go through the center of the circles ("A" below) or even through a common point.
Note how the glyphs after o at ~07:30 are clumped together more than other glyphs.
Quote:What surprises me, however, is that the circles are painted very perfectly.
Most circles in the VMS were drawn with compass, apparently using an ink attachment like the one linked in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. There is a pinprick on the vellum at the point marked (A) that is at the exact center of all circles, except the smallest one in the middle (which was drawn freehand, like the dot at its center).
However, even so, the circles are not quite perfect. They often fail to close, and the two branches run parallel at 1mm or more away from each other. Maybe the vellum warped while the circles were being draw, or the compass was not as solid as it should be. Moreover, some parts of some circles were retraced by freehand, and are jittery and not round.
Quote:Were these glyphs drawn without guide lines, without a ruler? After all, it would have been easy to do so.
The VMS scribe barely knew how to use a compass and ruler, but could not even divide a circle into four equal parts. Just as he did not use scored guide lines to get straight and evenly spaced text lines, he could or would not even try to divide circular diagrams into the required number of equal parts. In the Zodiac diagrams, for instance, he had to put 10 nymphs in the inner band and 20 in the outer one; but he just started drawing them around each band without caring about space. Thus he often had to squeeze the last nymphs at the end of each band. And often that was not enough, so he had to place some "overflow" nymphs on top of the diagram, to complete the required 30.
Quote:On the inner circle, we see most of the glyphs from the second circle again, with 4/5 words on the left side. But it is striking that aiin and ar (possibly or), which are very frequently used “words,” also appear where normal glyphs would normally be. Does that mean they are essentially encrypted letters?
The arrangement is more complicated than that. It looks as if the text rings 1, 3 and 4 contain explanations or comments (in Voynichese) about some of the glyphs in circle 2 (the 4x17 sequence).
The simplest explanation is that those 17 glyphs, in this context, are symbols for steps in some cycle, like the Western symbols for the signs of the Zodiac. However, AFAIK no one has found an astronomical or astrological cycle of 17 or 4x17 = 68 steps. One year is ~52 weeks ... Maybe it is the number of moons per year in the Author's home planet...
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: f57v
Bluetoes101 > 18-11-2025, 12:39 AM
It seems imgur ruined one of my earlier posts, but it doesn't repeat exactly, there are some other small changes but the main one is f and p
Where they alternate in the pattern, they also do not mingle in the surrounding "words"
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RE: f57v
Jorge_Stolfi > 18-11-2025, 06:37 AM
(18-11-2025, 12:39 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems imgur ruined one of my earlier posts, but it doesn't repeat exactly, there are some other small changes but the main one is f and p
Where they alternate in the pattern, they also do not mingle in the surrounding "words"
Beware that this page was probably "restored" a couple of times, long after it was first scribed. In particular, the variation in glyph shapes between the four repeats seems to be due to incorrect restoration.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: f57v
JoJo_Jost > 18-11-2025, 06:44 AM
@ Stolfi
Yes, that's exactly what surprises me. He uses a compass (or a sharp pencil with a thin string), but doesn't have a ruler to perfectly align the letters? Didn't he realize that the glyphs should be opposite each other? Because he just copied it?So was it a poorly paid or unmotivated copyist? Because, as you write, this high degree of inaccuracy can be seen everywhere in Voynich. And this on vellum?
The only thing I can think of is that it was simply poorly copied, probably from a template that was also in poor condition. If I didn't have sufficient evidence that VM really is text, I would be among those who assume it is a medieval hoax.
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RE: f57v
Jorge_Stolfi > 18-11-2025, 08:50 AM
(18-11-2025, 06:44 AM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.He uses a compass (or a sharp pencil with a thin string)
I think it is almost certain that he used a compass, even if was a self-made one. The string-and-pin method would have been more wobbly. At first I thought that he had used templates, like upturned bowls or cups; but that idea had the same problem, and then I found the pinprick at the center. Also, the traces of the circles are consistently very thin and wholly or partly inked, which rules out both pencil and quill. He must have used a metal ink attachment like the one shown in the miniature linked to.
Quote:doesn't have a ruler to perfectly align the letters?
Good professional scribes would draw two vertical lines to be the left and right rails of the text, then mark equally spaced dots along those lines, then draw horizontal baseline guides through those dots. All without ink or pencil, instead by scoring the vellum or paper with a sharp stylus -- so that those lines would be visible with slanted illumination, but not with "normal" illumination (perpendicular to the page).
AFAIK the VMS scribe did that only once, for the three lines of text at the bottom f67r2. If he did that elsewhere, I could not see signs of it.
Again, he did not know or care about planning his work by such things as drawing guide lines or dividing space into the required number of equal parts. On f67r2 itself, the straight lines that delimit the sectors are drawn with a ruler, yes; but opposite lines don't meet and miss the center of the diagram by several mm, and the angles between them vary by 50% or more.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: f57v
Bluetoes101 > 18-11-2025, 11:34 AM
(18-11-2025, 06:37 AM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(18-11-2025, 12:39 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It seems imgur ruined one of my earlier posts, but it doesn't repeat exactly, there are some other small changes but the main one is f and p
Where they alternate in the pattern, they also do not mingle in the surrounding "words"
Beware that this page was probably "restored" a couple of times, long after it was first scribed. In particular, the variation in glyph shapes between the four repeats seems to be due to incorrect restoration.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
All the best, --stolfi
I'm not on team retracer for this one. If what I showed was intentional it seems quite logical (whatever the logic was), if it was by accident it seems absurdly unlikely -
RE: f57v
Philipp Harland > 21-11-2025, 08:29 AM
Stolfi Wrote:AFAIK the VMS scribe did that only once, for the three lines of text at the bottom f67r2.
Can you show the clear evidence of scoring on f67r2? I'm curious now.