f17r
In a German context, the "3" is simply the letter "z". I've been looking at this a lot since it came up on the forum, and the situation in Medieval German is this:

  • "cz" stands for a "tz" sound. For example, you may read something like "czehen", which is exactly the same as "Zehn" in modern German.
  • the macron in cz is hard to find, this remains an unanswered question
  • The first letter of the word may not be "L", but rather k. Maybe b? It's hard to see because of the state of the vellum. 

Ignoring the macron, we would then read something like lutz, kutz or butz. A lot depends on how we treat the macron though:
  • we could pretend it's not there, in which case we'd need to read "?utz"
  • we could read it as a standard "omission of n" macron -> but where does the "n" go then? 
  • we could read it as a more general abbreviation line, which presumes the reader's familiarity with the commonly abbreviated word

Maybe the second option is most likely. But we could get a lot of words from this, depending on where we want the omitted "n" to go:

luntz, kuntz, buntz, lut-n-z, kut-n-z, but-n-z, kutzen, butzen, lutzen...
Reply


Messages In This Thread
f17r - by Koen G - 26-03-2016, 10:30 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 26-03-2016, 11:25 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 27-03-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 26-03-2016, 11:45 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 12:11 AM
RE: f17r - by EllieV - 27-03-2016, 01:05 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 27-03-2016, 05:22 AM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 27-03-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: f17r - by EllieV - 27-03-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 27-03-2016, 11:18 AM
RE: f17r - by ReneZ - 27-03-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: f17r - by Diane - 27-03-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 27-03-2016, 04:52 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 27-03-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: f17r - by david - 27-03-2016, 06:04 PM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 27-03-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 07:20 PM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 27-03-2016, 07:44 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 27-03-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 27-03-2016, 09:27 PM
RE: f17r - by davidjackson - 27-03-2016, 09:09 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 09:11 PM
RE: f17r - by davidjackson - 27-03-2016, 09:30 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 09:34 PM
RE: f17r - by davidjackson - 27-03-2016, 09:49 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 27-03-2016, 09:49 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 27-03-2016, 09:51 PM
RE: f17r - by davidjackson - 28-03-2016, 10:24 AM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 28-03-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 28-03-2016, 03:57 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 28-03-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 28-03-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: f17r - by Davidsch - 28-03-2016, 10:28 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 28-03-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 29-03-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 28-03-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 29-03-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: f17r - by Davidsch - 29-03-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 29-03-2016, 03:25 PM
RE: f17r - by Davidsch - 30-03-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 30-03-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 06-09-2016, 11:11 PM
RE: f17r - by julian - 30-09-2016, 02:05 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 30-09-2016, 04:24 AM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 30-09-2016, 04:47 PM
RE: f17r - by julian - 01-10-2016, 12:50 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 01-10-2016, 01:41 AM
RE: f17r - by ThomasCoon - 01-10-2016, 02:30 AM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 24-08-2017, 09:31 PM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 25-08-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 25-08-2017, 01:41 AM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 24-08-2017, 09:55 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 24-08-2017, 09:59 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 24-08-2017, 10:22 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 24-08-2017, 10:02 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 25-08-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 25-08-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 25-08-2017, 01:36 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 25-08-2017, 05:07 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 25-08-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 25-08-2017, 08:23 PM
RE: f17r - by Paris - 28-08-2017, 01:24 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 28-08-2017, 02:51 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 28-08-2017, 03:58 PM
RE: f17r - by Paris - 17-10-2017, 03:05 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 12-09-2018, 02:30 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 12-09-2018, 08:34 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 12-09-2018, 03:21 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 12-09-2018, 09:35 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 12-09-2018, 09:58 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 12-09-2018, 10:22 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 12-09-2018, 10:35 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 13-09-2018, 04:52 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 13-09-2018, 05:47 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 13-09-2018, 11:02 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 13-09-2018, 06:12 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 13-09-2018, 09:27 PM
RE: f17r - by Paris - 14-09-2018, 03:23 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 14-09-2018, 03:35 AM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 14-09-2018, 01:52 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 14-09-2018, 02:00 PM
RE: f17r - by Wladimir D - 14-09-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 14-09-2018, 03:05 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 14-09-2018, 03:53 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 14-09-2018, 10:38 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 14-09-2018, 11:59 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 15-09-2018, 03:08 PM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 15-09-2018, 08:36 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 15-09-2018, 11:35 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 15-09-2018, 04:17 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 15-09-2018, 11:18 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 15-09-2018, 11:57 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 16-09-2018, 12:01 AM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 16-09-2018, 12:00 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 16-09-2018, 12:21 AM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 16-09-2018, 12:10 AM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 16-09-2018, 11:37 AM
RE: f17r - by Paris - 17-09-2018, 08:12 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 18-09-2018, 12:29 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 16-09-2018, 03:22 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 16-09-2018, 05:42 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 16-09-2018, 06:18 PM
RE: f17r - by bi3mw - 16-09-2018, 06:35 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 16-09-2018, 11:18 PM
RE: f17r - by MarcoP - 16-09-2018, 06:46 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 16-09-2018, 11:58 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 17-09-2018, 01:12 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 17-09-2018, 03:44 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 17-09-2018, 02:28 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 17-09-2018, 04:05 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 17-09-2018, 04:58 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 17-09-2018, 05:17 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 17-09-2018, 05:18 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 18-09-2018, 12:44 AM
RE: f17r - by Diane - 04-10-2018, 05:30 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 04-10-2018, 06:07 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 04-10-2018, 06:11 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 04-10-2018, 06:18 AM
RE: f17r - by Diane - 05-10-2018, 05:26 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 05-10-2018, 07:20 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 06-10-2018, 12:35 AM
RE: f17r - by Diane - 10-10-2018, 12:52 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 10-10-2018, 02:52 PM
RE: f17r - by Paris - 10-10-2018, 07:01 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 10-10-2018, 07:39 PM
RE: f17r - by ReneZ - 10-10-2018, 07:32 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 10-10-2018, 07:47 PM
RE: f17r - by nickpelling - 16-10-2018, 07:01 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 25-11-2018, 12:14 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 25-11-2018, 12:38 AM
RE: f17r - by davidjackson - 25-11-2018, 08:32 AM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 25-11-2018, 10:03 AM
RE: f17r - by davidjackson - 25-11-2018, 12:34 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 25-11-2018, 03:03 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 25-11-2018, 02:57 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 25-11-2018, 09:15 PM
RE: f17r - by ReneZ - 01-12-2018, 10:33 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 01-12-2018, 12:49 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 01-12-2018, 01:01 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 01-12-2018, 04:57 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 01-12-2018, 05:28 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 02-12-2018, 03:46 AM
RE: f17r - by Davidsch - 04-12-2018, 02:36 PM
RE: f17r - by Monica Yokubinas - 03-06-2019, 01:10 AM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-09-2020, 10:07 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 04-09-2020, 12:46 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-09-2020, 01:07 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 04-09-2020, 01:11 PM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021, 08:54 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 06-05-2021, 10:53 PM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021, 11:03 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 06-05-2021, 01:43 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-05-2021, 02:35 PM
RE: f17r - by ReneZ - 06-05-2021, 02:38 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 06-05-2021, 02:45 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-05-2021, 02:52 PM
RE: f17r - by ReneZ - 06-05-2021, 03:28 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 11:59 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-05-2021, 10:39 PM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021, 10:45 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 06-05-2021, 11:10 PM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021, 11:28 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 06-05-2021, 11:53 PM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021, 11:49 PM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 07-05-2021, 12:57 AM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 07-05-2021, 02:03 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 06-05-2021, 11:26 PM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 06-05-2021, 11:42 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 07-05-2021, 10:55 AM
RE: f17r - by nablator - 07-05-2021, 11:25 AM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 07-05-2021, 02:01 PM
RE: f17r - by nablator - 07-05-2021, 02:39 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 12:02 AM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 07-05-2021, 08:33 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 07-05-2021, 09:23 AM
RE: f17r - by -JKP- - 07-05-2021, 06:57 PM
RE: f17r - by nablator - 07-05-2021, 08:48 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 07-05-2021, 07:09 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 08:09 PM
RE: f17r - by nablator - 07-05-2021, 08:53 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 09:37 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 07-05-2021, 10:10 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 10:33 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 07-05-2021, 10:44 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 11:02 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2021, 11:19 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 08-05-2021, 12:42 AM
RE: f17r - by geoffreycaveney - 08-05-2021, 12:46 AM
RE: f17r - by Scarecrow - 08-05-2021, 08:51 AM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 08-05-2021, 01:26 AM
RE: f17r - by bi3mw - 08-05-2021, 08:01 AM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 08-05-2021, 02:39 PM
RE: f17r - by nickpelling - 08-05-2021, 04:51 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 08-05-2021, 06:15 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 08-05-2021, 10:37 AM
RE: f17r - by Scarecrow - 08-05-2021, 10:57 AM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 08-05-2021, 01:54 PM
RE: f17r - by Anton - 08-05-2021, 07:23 PM
RE: f17r - by Helmut Winkler - 08-05-2021, 07:59 PM
RE: f17r - by Battler - 09-05-2021, 12:26 AM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2021, 08:59 PM
RE: f17r - by Ranceps - 10-08-2021, 08:49 AM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 01-08-2025, 12:58 PM
RE: f17r - by Stefan Wirtz_2 - 01-08-2025, 01:21 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 01-08-2025, 01:52 PM
RE: f17r - by Stefan Wirtz_2 - 01-08-2025, 04:37 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 02-08-2025, 07:44 PM
RE: f17r - by BessAgritianin - 01-08-2025, 02:48 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 01-08-2025, 08:53 PM
RE: f17r - by Stefan Wirtz_2 - 01-08-2025, 11:49 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 02-08-2025, 08:32 AM
RE: f17r - by Stefan Wirtz_2 - 02-08-2025, 11:21 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 02-08-2025, 05:52 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 02-08-2025, 09:22 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 02-08-2025, 09:54 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 02-08-2025, 10:18 PM
RE: f17r - by Searcher - 02-08-2025, 10:31 PM
RE: f17r - by Petrasti - 10-08-2025, 08:32 PM
RE: f17r - by davidma - 10-10-2025, 07:11 PM
RE: f17r - by Aga Tentakulus - 11-10-2025, 09:06 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 11-10-2025, 11:00 AM
RE: f17r - by Skoove - 01-11-2025, 03:41 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 01-11-2025, 06:38 PM
RE: f17r - by Skoove - 02-11-2025, 04:53 AM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 01-11-2025, 06:29 PM
RE: f17r - by Skoove - 02-11-2025, 04:39 AM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 01-11-2025, 06:50 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 02-11-2025, 05:37 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 02-11-2025, 01:45 AM
RE: f17r - by Skoove - 02-11-2025, 05:08 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 02-11-2025, 09:48 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 02-11-2025, 05:21 PM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 02-11-2025, 09:33 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 02-11-2025, 10:54 PM
RE: f17r - by schimmelchampagne - 02-11-2025, 11:46 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 03-11-2025, 04:19 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 03-11-2025, 06:38 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 03-11-2025, 08:50 PM
RE: f17r - by schimmelchampagne - 03-11-2025, 10:38 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 04-11-2025, 02:27 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 04-11-2025, 06:48 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 04-11-2025, 07:45 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 04-11-2025, 08:09 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 04-11-2025, 02:12 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 04-11-2025, 03:35 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 04-11-2025, 07:02 PM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 04-11-2025, 07:40 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 04-11-2025, 10:02 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 05-11-2025, 01:21 PM
RE: f17r - by Dana Scott - 10-11-2025, 09:57 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 05-11-2025, 04:42 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 10-11-2025, 09:28 AM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 10-11-2025, 11:16 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 12:57 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 12:23 AM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 11-11-2025, 01:37 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 03:26 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 02:59 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 11-11-2025, 06:42 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 09:03 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 11-11-2025, 10:57 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 11:29 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 11-11-2025, 06:13 PM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 11-11-2025, 06:40 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 11-11-2025, 07:15 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-11-2025, 09:32 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 12-11-2025, 06:43 AM
RE: f17r - by oshfdk - 12-11-2025, 12:16 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 12-11-2025, 11:11 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 12-11-2025, 01:41 PM
RE: f17r - by oshfdk - 12-11-2025, 03:30 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 12-11-2025, 06:57 PM
RE: f17r - by oshfdk - 12-11-2025, 07:32 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 12-11-2025, 08:57 PM
RE: f17r - by oshfdk - 12-11-2025, 09:07 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 12-11-2025, 10:52 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 12-11-2025, 02:28 PM
RE: f17r - by oshfdk - 12-11-2025, 02:59 PM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 12-11-2025, 11:00 PM
RE: f17r - by nablator - 12-11-2025, 11:13 PM
RE: f17r - by oshfdk - 12-11-2025, 11:27 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 13-11-2025, 12:31 AM
RE: f17r - by Bernd - 12-11-2025, 11:21 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 17-11-2025, 11:02 AM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-11-2025, 01:46 PM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 17-11-2025, 03:22 PM
RE: f17r - by schimmelchampagne - 17-11-2025, 07:33 PM
RE: f17r - by Bluetoes101 - 18-11-2025, 02:09 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-11-2025, 03:12 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-11-2025, 03:25 PM
RE: f17r - by Doireannjane - 19-11-2025, 08:04 AM
RE: f17r - by Koen G - 18-11-2025, 02:28 PM
RE: f17r - by Bluetoes101 - 18-11-2025, 03:39 PM
RE: f17r - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-11-2025, 04:32 PM
RE: f17r - by Bluetoes101 - 18-11-2025, 05:00 PM
RE: f17r - by Doireannjane - 19-11-2025, 06:53 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 19-11-2025, 07:29 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 19-11-2025, 07:39 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 19-11-2025, 07:58 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 19-11-2025, 08:24 AM
RE: f17r - by Doireannjane - 19-11-2025, 08:48 AM
RE: f17r - by Doireannjane - 19-11-2025, 09:07 AM
RE: f17r - by JoJo_Jost - 19-11-2025, 09:46 AM
RE: f17r - by Doireannjane - 19-11-2025, 10:32 AM
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS - by -JKP- - 24-08-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS - by -JKP- - 27-08-2017, 04:34 AM
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS - by Anton - 24-08-2017, 06:12 PM
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS - by Anton - 24-08-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS - by -JKP- - 24-08-2017, 07:23 PM
RE: The most elusive writing in the MS - by -JKP- - 24-08-2017, 07:42 PM

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