11-06-2016, 02:09 PM
Thanks for the elaborated and quick answer, Koen!
Please don't take my general idea as something "carved in stone", "cemented" and "not with an open mind". I don't try to "close solution space" (as René Zandbergen is calling it).
But -especially as a starter and not experienced in analysing ancient texts (except from 1 off-curriculum paleography course at school, long time ago)- with a working hypothesis or a set of them it helps to structure research. Keeping all the options open all the time would make it far too difficult to analyse anything.
The part about the trips and visions is not necessarily anachronistic imho. Especially in earlier ages there were many more people interested in natural workings ("alchemy") than now. Circles of people described by others as "witches" or "sorcerers" or "shamans" or "part of a sect", etc.
arguments for this are:
- the description of some of the plants (poppies; papaver/opium, the mushroom and cannabis) -> will look into this more to have some more content to back it up
- the manuscript is imo not written during the trips/visions, but after it; describing the views, the relation with the body and the skies. As stated the text is neat, and doesn't show a delusional state.
- apart from 1 cross in the hand of a "nymph" the symbology seems quite neutral; no clear mentioning of existing religions (islam, judaism (except for the Kabbalah link suggested), buddhism)
- before the Reformation the power of the Church was large and it may well be the authors were atheists/agnostic and thus feared persecutions; the reason for the code and the plants being "fantasised" (but based on real plants)
Also I don't intend to present it as something "lacking depth". Trips and visions in the (post)modern age may be frowned upon (unfair) and seen as "shallow" (far from it), but in those times the use of plants was nothing like that. It was used as medicine and so why not as "medicine for the mind"?
Look for historical examples is a good suggestion. Although also that wouldn't mean it is (un)true. As the manuscript is so unique, also the thematics can be unique. That there are no other historical descriptions of visions and trips would not mean the possibility is ridiculous. Also maybe because those historical descriptions that were there are destroyed/lost through time.
Yes, of course the creation of a manuscript is time-consuming (hence the unlikeliness of a full hoax) but maybe the people involved in this wanted to get away from that oral tradition and have something written down. To pass the knowledge on to their children and/or others, deemed worth enough to enter the "circle" of people in the know about it.
The dark history of ~150 years (creation-Rudolf II) can be a hint. It can also mean the documentation of ownership is simply lost (as happened with the majority of the documents from those ages, especially in war-driven Europe) and it was stored somewhere in the archives of a buyer, but the records of the owner have been gone.
The "600 ducat question" (cf. The 1 million dollar question of the time) imho relies on the fact that it was presented as the product of the famous Roger Bacon. A ruler like Rudolf wouldn't pay such an amount for the work of some unknown author, even though it looks interesting because of its mystery, in those ages that money could have been spent on something more useful and/or from famous authors.
The point about "being expensive" I think is something that has the risk of "cementation", as you called it.
If I picture the 15th century society well, the stratification was like 80-90% farmers, slaves (!) and foot soldiers (who were mostly illiterate or low-literate), 5-10% merchants and salesmen and 5% what we would call higher middle class and rich now (doctors, lawyers, artists, clergymen, early scientists, generals, nobility, kings, etc.).
History in general is completely biased and skewed; the lives of the smallest groups have been described a lot and the vast majority of people remain anonymous or semi-anonymous (only church records of baptising, marriage and death). The fact that even birth dates of the higher classes of those times (and later) are unknown (see Wikipedia for numerous examples) confirms that.
To produce something as elaborated and skilled as the VMS, one cannot be "just a dumb farmer" and imho also not of that 5% top class of people (too much social control). The part in the middle, which was small I would say is the best guess; intelligent enough to produce this and not too fixed in location (although one must have a safe place to write it); so traveling merchants and related people.
There can have been people who had access to these kinds of materials (vellum, ink) but were not of the highest class, or the children of them. If the materials were inherited or even stolen, the authors could have been not wealthy and still produce something of wealth.
I agree, if the intention was to keep it oral (the most secret), there wouldn't be a reason to write the knowledge down. But if the intention was to keep it secret and share it with a group of people, it would.
Definitely good points about influences of farther away (western Asia, India, Persia, etc.) I think. I will check out Dianes website, thanks!
But copies of earlier texts and mainly imagery would produce the herbals (or at least some of them) to be more recognisable, wouldn't they? Also here I think the working hypothesis about the purpose of the manuscript is important; it comes back all the time. Without one, everything is open and there wouldn't be any paths to choose. Apart from trying to break the cypher I think most of the work done was in the comparisons with other herbals/documents around in those times. The general "conclusions" are "they look alike, but are not it exactly". So then it wouldn't be a copy because a copy would produce at least some of the plants/roots to be recognisable or more recognisable than is the case now.
Also the script is clearly intended to be a code. The astronomical/astrological pages are the least secret and quite recognisable. But that may point to: "I don't care if someone recognises the zodiac, but I do not want an outside reader to know which plants (herbals) exactly to use and how (recipes)".
But influences from western Asia (not China/Japan) is a good point. I will try and see if there is any relation possible between the works of Avicenna and other famous Persian/Arabic/Indian scientists and the astronomical sections.
The script looks like influenced by Arabic/Farsi, so it may be a good lead.
What I don't think is that the book traveled a lot after it was written; the condition I would say is excellent, especially considering all the movement in the 17th century. Of course people were careful about books, much more than now, but traveling books (as traveling alchemists would use) imho would have signs of that. Also Kwakkel (the site Zandbergen linked to) has described that books would contain sand, leaves, signs of use/travel. This manuscript looks like it has been stored safely, not traveled after it has been written so much. Just 2 wormholes and no signs of water damage to the paint/ink. Some small stains/specks but that is normal for such a long time.
Thanks for the image of the Roman "nymph" mosaic. Yes, that could be the case; all the "nymphs" drawn as fair because they represent angels or goddesses. The image you posted looks strange btw. It is a man (clear from the face and even with a faint beard it seems), also the right arm (left in the picture) looks male, not female, but with breasts and female thighs...
The last point; "too Dan Brown"? I don't think so (have read 1 Dan Brown book (Da Vinci Code), but I wasn't thinking about that; it is written for the masses so quite bad anyway). Consider the gain (not necessarily financial; pride could be) of having solved the mystery but still keep it secret... There are also a lot of points against it; if the knowledge is there, why would the jesuits sell it to Voynich, running the risk it would have been in private hands and collections and not displayed as now (they didn't know in 1912 it would be made public (at least the images) by Yale). So it's just an idea, nothing more. I don't consider it the biggest possibility.
The theory of Rugg I think is not very strong. I don't dispute his knowledge and methods of analysis but in general I think calling it a hoax is an easy way out. It reminds of other riddles where people, not interested enough in solving them back out and shout "Ahh, this is fake, won't spend time on it" only because they cannot solve it. At the same time a counterargument is that it isn't solved still (at least officially) so it might be a hoax.
The work of Stolfi and others on the "perfect Gaussian distribution" is interesting. It can hardly be coincidence and could point to a very clever choice of languages or a fake language. Analysing people in those ages wouldn't have the knowledge or time to create those statistics, without computers. In this publication however the curve lines up almost exactly with Arabic: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (page 4)...
Nice to see you're a starter (although with more experience), that makes talking easier. I lack the jargon and only now start to learn it, mainly from Zandbergen's website.
Thanks again and you've given some good clues to dive into. I wish I could spend a lot of time on this, but so many interests and tasks outside of it that I cannot consider myself a "researcher" on the VMS (and probably will never become one).
Please don't take my general idea as something "carved in stone", "cemented" and "not with an open mind". I don't try to "close solution space" (as René Zandbergen is calling it).
But -especially as a starter and not experienced in analysing ancient texts (except from 1 off-curriculum paleography course at school, long time ago)- with a working hypothesis or a set of them it helps to structure research. Keeping all the options open all the time would make it far too difficult to analyse anything.
The part about the trips and visions is not necessarily anachronistic imho. Especially in earlier ages there were many more people interested in natural workings ("alchemy") than now. Circles of people described by others as "witches" or "sorcerers" or "shamans" or "part of a sect", etc.
arguments for this are:
- the description of some of the plants (poppies; papaver/opium, the mushroom and cannabis) -> will look into this more to have some more content to back it up
- the manuscript is imo not written during the trips/visions, but after it; describing the views, the relation with the body and the skies. As stated the text is neat, and doesn't show a delusional state.
- apart from 1 cross in the hand of a "nymph" the symbology seems quite neutral; no clear mentioning of existing religions (islam, judaism (except for the Kabbalah link suggested), buddhism)
- before the Reformation the power of the Church was large and it may well be the authors were atheists/agnostic and thus feared persecutions; the reason for the code and the plants being "fantasised" (but based on real plants)
Also I don't intend to present it as something "lacking depth". Trips and visions in the (post)modern age may be frowned upon (unfair) and seen as "shallow" (far from it), but in those times the use of plants was nothing like that. It was used as medicine and so why not as "medicine for the mind"?
Look for historical examples is a good suggestion. Although also that wouldn't mean it is (un)true. As the manuscript is so unique, also the thematics can be unique. That there are no other historical descriptions of visions and trips would not mean the possibility is ridiculous. Also maybe because those historical descriptions that were there are destroyed/lost through time.
Yes, of course the creation of a manuscript is time-consuming (hence the unlikeliness of a full hoax) but maybe the people involved in this wanted to get away from that oral tradition and have something written down. To pass the knowledge on to their children and/or others, deemed worth enough to enter the "circle" of people in the know about it.
The dark history of ~150 years (creation-Rudolf II) can be a hint. It can also mean the documentation of ownership is simply lost (as happened with the majority of the documents from those ages, especially in war-driven Europe) and it was stored somewhere in the archives of a buyer, but the records of the owner have been gone.
The "600 ducat question" (cf. The 1 million dollar question of the time) imho relies on the fact that it was presented as the product of the famous Roger Bacon. A ruler like Rudolf wouldn't pay such an amount for the work of some unknown author, even though it looks interesting because of its mystery, in those ages that money could have been spent on something more useful and/or from famous authors.
The point about "being expensive" I think is something that has the risk of "cementation", as you called it.
If I picture the 15th century society well, the stratification was like 80-90% farmers, slaves (!) and foot soldiers (who were mostly illiterate or low-literate), 5-10% merchants and salesmen and 5% what we would call higher middle class and rich now (doctors, lawyers, artists, clergymen, early scientists, generals, nobility, kings, etc.).
History in general is completely biased and skewed; the lives of the smallest groups have been described a lot and the vast majority of people remain anonymous or semi-anonymous (only church records of baptising, marriage and death). The fact that even birth dates of the higher classes of those times (and later) are unknown (see Wikipedia for numerous examples) confirms that.
To produce something as elaborated and skilled as the VMS, one cannot be "just a dumb farmer" and imho also not of that 5% top class of people (too much social control). The part in the middle, which was small I would say is the best guess; intelligent enough to produce this and not too fixed in location (although one must have a safe place to write it); so traveling merchants and related people.
There can have been people who had access to these kinds of materials (vellum, ink) but were not of the highest class, or the children of them. If the materials were inherited or even stolen, the authors could have been not wealthy and still produce something of wealth.
I agree, if the intention was to keep it oral (the most secret), there wouldn't be a reason to write the knowledge down. But if the intention was to keep it secret and share it with a group of people, it would.
Definitely good points about influences of farther away (western Asia, India, Persia, etc.) I think. I will check out Dianes website, thanks!
But copies of earlier texts and mainly imagery would produce the herbals (or at least some of them) to be more recognisable, wouldn't they? Also here I think the working hypothesis about the purpose of the manuscript is important; it comes back all the time. Without one, everything is open and there wouldn't be any paths to choose. Apart from trying to break the cypher I think most of the work done was in the comparisons with other herbals/documents around in those times. The general "conclusions" are "they look alike, but are not it exactly". So then it wouldn't be a copy because a copy would produce at least some of the plants/roots to be recognisable or more recognisable than is the case now.
Also the script is clearly intended to be a code. The astronomical/astrological pages are the least secret and quite recognisable. But that may point to: "I don't care if someone recognises the zodiac, but I do not want an outside reader to know which plants (herbals) exactly to use and how (recipes)".
But influences from western Asia (not China/Japan) is a good point. I will try and see if there is any relation possible between the works of Avicenna and other famous Persian/Arabic/Indian scientists and the astronomical sections.
The script looks like influenced by Arabic/Farsi, so it may be a good lead.
What I don't think is that the book traveled a lot after it was written; the condition I would say is excellent, especially considering all the movement in the 17th century. Of course people were careful about books, much more than now, but traveling books (as traveling alchemists would use) imho would have signs of that. Also Kwakkel (the site Zandbergen linked to) has described that books would contain sand, leaves, signs of use/travel. This manuscript looks like it has been stored safely, not traveled after it has been written so much. Just 2 wormholes and no signs of water damage to the paint/ink. Some small stains/specks but that is normal for such a long time.
Thanks for the image of the Roman "nymph" mosaic. Yes, that could be the case; all the "nymphs" drawn as fair because they represent angels or goddesses. The image you posted looks strange btw. It is a man (clear from the face and even with a faint beard it seems), also the right arm (left in the picture) looks male, not female, but with breasts and female thighs...
The last point; "too Dan Brown"? I don't think so (have read 1 Dan Brown book (Da Vinci Code), but I wasn't thinking about that; it is written for the masses so quite bad anyway). Consider the gain (not necessarily financial; pride could be) of having solved the mystery but still keep it secret... There are also a lot of points against it; if the knowledge is there, why would the jesuits sell it to Voynich, running the risk it would have been in private hands and collections and not displayed as now (they didn't know in 1912 it would be made public (at least the images) by Yale). So it's just an idea, nothing more. I don't consider it the biggest possibility.
The theory of Rugg I think is not very strong. I don't dispute his knowledge and methods of analysis but in general I think calling it a hoax is an easy way out. It reminds of other riddles where people, not interested enough in solving them back out and shout "Ahh, this is fake, won't spend time on it" only because they cannot solve it. At the same time a counterargument is that it isn't solved still (at least officially) so it might be a hoax.
The work of Stolfi and others on the "perfect Gaussian distribution" is interesting. It can hardly be coincidence and could point to a very clever choice of languages or a fake language. Analysing people in those ages wouldn't have the knowledge or time to create those statistics, without computers. In this publication however the curve lines up almost exactly with Arabic: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (page 4)...
Nice to see you're a starter (although with more experience), that makes talking easier. I lack the jargon and only now start to learn it, mainly from Zandbergen's website.
Thanks again and you've given some good clues to dive into. I wish I could spend a lot of time on this, but so many interests and tasks outside of it that I cannot consider myself a "researcher" on the VMS (and probably will never become one).