[split] Big f116v spillover thread.

[JoJo_Jost]

Since I just noticed it:

The word after “Poxleber” probably also starts with “p,” followed by either “m” or “xn”; it could be followed by a lowercase “s”  and then a “n.”

The “e” in the ending ‘en’ was often simply omitted.

If we replace the “x” with an “a,” we get “pansen/pansn,” which in Middle High German means “to eat noisily, to feast”:

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“Poxleber pansen” = to feast on goat liver

[Jorge_Stolfi]

Where do you see a ‘p’?Has it never occurred to you that ink smudged by moisture and wiped away with a cloth leaves exactly these marks?

Why would those perfectly vertical streaks occur only under a "u" or "v", and under five out of six occurrences?  

Now it’s a ‘u’ or a ‘v’, so the words are German too.

That is backwards: assuming that those words are German, those letters cannot be "p"; they must be "u" or "v".

But those words are not German.  Not Latin.  Not Voynichese.  Not Chinese...

All the best, --stolfi

[Aga Tentakulus]

Why would those perfectly vertical streaks occur only under a "u" or "v", and under five out of six occurrences?  

That’s a good point; I didn’t notice it in the normal image. I’ll bear it in mind.

“Poxleber pansen” = to feast on goat liver

"umen" ist ein normales alemanisches Wort.
Beispiel: Um was geht es? Es geht um-en Bock. "um einen"
Das geht auch im Bayrischen.
Oder "umen z'füttern" Um ihn zu füttern.
Es hat zwei funktionen. "um ein / um ihn"

‘umen’ is a common Alemannic word.
Example: What’s it about? It’s about a goat. ‘um einen’
This also works in Bavarian.
Or ‘umen z’füttern’ – to feed him.
It has two functions: ‘um ein / um ihn’

That is backwards: assuming that those words are German, those letters cannot be "p"; they must be "u" or "v".

Ist es tatsächlich ein "p" ist es das gleiche.
"pald-en" Eine Tonverschiebung. "bald ein / bald ihn"
Und es ist immer noch deutsch.
Auch hier funtioniert es im alemanischen wie Bayrisch.
"pbren" ich habe keine Idee.

If it really is a ‘p’, it’s the same.
‘pald-en’ – a sound shift. ‘bald ein / bald ihn’
And it’s still German.
Here, too, it works in Alemannic just as it does in Bavarian.
‘pbren’ – I’ve no idea.

[R. Sale]

Seach Ninja files for "probieren". Does it work as an abbreviation: p(ro)b(ie)ren?

[JoJo_Jost]

@ age But the “u” in “umen” looks exactly like the ‘p’ in “palsen”; it's just missing the down stroke there, too.

   

That the following “a” is also missing its entire front part is just a guess—I have to admit that—and it's not very clever.

If you want to read the glyph before the “n” as an “e,” then it would spell “pmen”—which doesn’t make any sense.

But then, without making any further assumptions, you could also read the first stroke of the “m” as an “i.” Then it would read “pinen.”

Pinen = strafen = to punish

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Maybe that’s a possibility, and I think someone had already suggested that.

[Jorge_Stolfi]

If it really is a ‘p’, it’s the same.  ‘pald-en’ – a sound shift. ‘bald ein / bald ihn’ .  And it’s still German. Here, too, it works in Alemannic just as it does in Bavarian.  pbren’ – I’ve no idea.

I will grant you this much: the poor clod who was trying to recover the lost text spoke some Germanic dialect.  Maybe he could chew some Latin.  If the accident happened after 1500 or so, he must have had some idea of what 15th century German letter shapes looked like.

So he struggled to parse the smudges into Germanisch or Latinorum words in 15th century script.  But there was no way to ignore those long straight descenders: the only plausible letter that had them was "p".  So he ended up with "paldcn pbren" or "paldcn pbrey".  And he was just as baffled as we are now.

All the best, --stolfi

[JoJo_Jost]

@stolfi I can't really tell if it was written later.

But the writer knew exactly what he was writing, because he had a penchant for alliteration and rhyme.

Poxleber pmen putrifer
Marix morix
Six vix
palden / pbren
aladabad, multod, portad
abia maria

(P.S.: And I still think the 8 is an “s” it makes so much sense)
   

[Aga Tentakulus]

(P.S.: And I still think the 8 is an “s” it makes so much sense)

That’s exactly what I meant.
An ‘ss’ ending, or even a double ‘ss’, within a word doesn’t make sense. At least, I’ve never seen it like that before.

I always go with what I see first and try not to make any changes.
You can see two ‘p’s: ‘Pox’ and ‘porta8’.
The other ‘p’s don’t look like that.
The letters a, e, i, o and u are important. Where’s the ‘u’?

[Aga Tentakulus]

   
Perhaps this will be of some help.
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I know Lisa has an even better dictionary of letters.

[Koen G]

‘umen’ is a common Alemannic word.
Example: What’s it about? It’s about a goat. ‘um einen’
This also works in Bavarian.
Or ‘umen z’füttern’ – to feed him.
It has two functions: ‘um ein / um ihn’.

In that case, it's worth bearing the attestation "Ain poxleber umb ain kreutzer." in mind. Then I'd look for monetary denominations or tradable items that might fit for the next word. A goat liver for a...?

Pfenning has the "pf" diphthong, but it would need a first part and be abbreviated to "pfer".

If we read the word as "putpfer", then "Kupfer" (copper) comes close, but not quite...