f33r

[Koen G]

To get back to the shape of the leaves, if they have a mnemonic layer one thing they always reminded me of is shipping amphorae (typically for wine).

   

Of course these are Bronze Age vessels and I don't know if their shape would still be relevant ca. 1430. Or, more likely, if the peculiarly shaped leaf base might be supposed to bring to mind a different kind of container.
Again according to the wiki for Nuphar lutea, "the common name 'brandy bottle' is derived from the aroma produced by the flowers which is similar to stale alcohol."

[Koen G]

From Ireland's Wild Plants – Myths, Legends & Folklore By Niall Mac Coitir  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The yellow water-lily was said to destroy or remove the sexual drive if taken. It seems for this reason to have been adopted as a symbol of celibacy as it appears in carvings on the roof bosses of Bristol Cathedral ad Westminster Abbey, and in the Angel Choir at Lincoln. Another name for yellow water-lily in England is 'brandy bottle' because the flowers are said to smell of the stale dregs of brandy.

[Anton]

Not sure if they would store brandy in such amphoras

[Anton]

Hi Koen,

It suddenly occurred to me that this may be not an amphora but a wineskin! I was looking at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which has leaves of the same shape...

[-JKP-]

For You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it's possible that's the natural shape of the leaf. It looks very similar to Acetosella, which has hastate leaves.

But, this idea that some leaf shapes might be intended to mimic amphorae or wine skins is certainly intriguing. Perhaps some of them are.



Koen, I took a look at some of those roof bosses. Ceiling bosses are very cool (unfortunately most of them too recent to be influential but a few are very old). I've seen a few before, but they are more varied and numerous than I realized and there are a lot more pictures now than there used to be.

[Koen G]

JKP, the roof bosses are of secondary importance. What I find more interesting is the apparent usage of yellow water lily to suppress sexual urges, i.e. to help with celibacy. If this were confirmed in some contemporary source, it would provide a very strong explanations for the supposed "monk heads". It would explain their docile facial expression, but also give a perfect reason for depicting monks and depicting two of them in this vaguely testicular way.

So if the plant is yellow water lily and the celibacy thing can be confirmed, all pieces of the puzzle would fall into place. 


Anton: I don't object to that Both plants' leaves have the same features exaggerated, which may confirm that they are shaped by similar symbolic meanings.

Brandy was still rather unknown in the early 15th century. So if they also linked the plant to alcohol, it would surely have been to wine.

[-JKP-]

I did understand that Koen, and I agree that the associations are provocative.

But in the process of looking up the water lily bosses, I saw a few that reminded me of other things in the VMS. Some of the bosses are people poking out of textures, some are zodiac symbols.

[Anton]

I'm afraid celibacy is not something that directly follows from the image of a monk, if monks they are. There are very many things connected with monks, so why celibacy in the first place?

So: 1) why monks? Anything else beside the hair? Why two of them (as already asked for JKP). Are they "twin" or not? (For twins, Hypnos and Thanatos are a perfect mnemonic for poppy).

2) If monks, why celibacy?

It's a great thing that apparently mnemonical leaves of 33r and 17v are the same - a rare occasion, it seems. This means there must be some similarity in name or use - and, perhaps, contextual affinity in the text (should be investigated).

[Koen G]

Anton, think of it the other way. If you want to draw something in the root to remind you that this plant is used to encourage celibacy, what do you draw?


As for whether or not they actually look like monks, I'm not sure myself. Would the suggested hair style here really be uncommon in the other classes? From this image we can't really say whether or not they have the typical bald spot on top.

[-JKP-]

Anton, I haven't done a lot of research on this, but it's my understanding that the Catholic church expected celibacy from their monks from the early medieval period onwards.

There were differences of opinion in some of the northern areas (especially in the regions that eventually became protestant) and I think they had a more open attitude toward priests (ministers) and sex but, as far as I know, monks and nuns (the ones accepted into the order) were supposed to be celibate.

If anyone has better information on this, feel free to correct this if I am wrong. It's a long time since I looked into it and I didn't research it with any vigor.