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+--- Thread: Quire9-10 pattern (/thread-3813.html)
Quire9-10 pattern - RobGea - 04-06-2022
Looking at the Astronomical/Cosmological (Quires 9 and 10) section ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
i noticed a pattern, well a voynich pattern
i.e when you think you have found a pattern but on closer inspection, the count is off by one or theres an exception.
It happens so often that in darker moments one thinks that it is intentional.
Images with a face in the centre have 2 pages separating them (except the last which has 3).
f67r1 - Face in centre
f67r2 - Star in centre
f67v2 - Star in centre
f67v1 - Face in centre
f68r1 - Sun + Moon
f68r2 - Sun + Moon
f68r3 - Face in centre
f68v3 - T-O map in centre
f68v2 - Star in centre
f68v1 - Face in centre
f69r - Star in centre
f69v - Star in centre
f70r1 - Star in centre
f70r2 - Face in centre
Some speculative thoughts:
The Faces symbolize Planets.
f67v1 is Jupiter aka Zeus because he looks a bit godlike with his aura and well drawn face
f68r3 is Venus because of the 7 stars, pleiades + Venus have a cycle together
f67v2 Swirly star is the Pole star, possible T-O map bottom left
If anyone has any links or blog posts about this stuff that would be great.
No doubt other folks have suggested similar things but i cannot find any information.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - MarcoP - 05-06-2022
I think the faces-as-planets idea (or something similar) is discussed in Nick's book. I haven't read it and I am unable to add more details, sorry.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - Ruby Novacna - 05-06-2022
(04-06-2022, 04:36 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No doubt other folks have suggested similar things but i cannot find any information.Indeed, it is better to search directly on a website or blog, it is faster.
(05-06-2022, 10:13 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the faces-as-planets idea (or something similar) is discussed in Nick's book.Also on his blog
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RE: Quire9-10 pattern - bi3mw - 05-06-2022
Nick's approach to Q9/Q10 was probably as follows:
Quote:Back in 2006, I argued (in ‘Curse’, pp.58-61) that a series of seven consecutive circular diagrams in the Voynich Manuscript’s Q9 (‘Quire 9’) and Q10 probably represented the seven ‘planets’ of traditional astrology / astronomy.
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Edit: Oops, Ruby Novacna was faster at finding Nick's blog.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - Anton - 05-06-2022
I don't think these faces represent anything beside Sun and Moon, the patterns are very characteristic. Compare with the same arising from the "pillars" in f67v2.
As for the general interpretation of the "faceless" ones, we had some discussion here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - DONJCH - 06-06-2022
There was also this thread, based on Nick's book
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I did some additional counting which started to look interesting but ended up being unconvincing, in true Voynich fashion!
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - R. Sale - 06-06-2022
This is the heart of the Voynich conundrum. You are correctly stating the situation, yet it appears that you do not really see it. What is consistent, in true VMs fashion, is the apparent presentation of certain information, and then going that extra bit in order to create ambiguity. That is the fashion of the VMs. It's trickery. Sometimes it is the alteration of appearance while maintaining traditional factors, of color, pattern and placement. Sometimes it is dual interpretation. Sometimes it is a paired combination of diverse images and the incorporation of mythology. Sometimes it is the borrowing of heraldic insignia patterns.
More important, is not to let the trickery thwart the investigation. If A is true, and B is valid, etc. - just because F is false, does not negate the other factors. And in VMs investigation, all interesting and potentially relevant factors need to be brought into the conversation, even though they may seem problematic in the present.
Consider the tub patterns in the outer ring of VMs Pisces from the perspective of traditional heraldic practice. Similarities exist, but so do certain differences or eccentricities. And in view of VMs trickery, are these differences to be seen as flaws? Or could they be intentional insertions? Is trickery used as a form of deception? Of course, it was. From the cosmos to Melusine to White Aries. How many examples are needed?
The 'reality' of the VMs is indicated by a host of factors: everything from swallowtail merlons to the Golden Fleece, to the myths of Melusine and Philomela, to wolkenbands and nebuly lines, to the Oresme cosmos and 43 undulations and the duke of Berry's library, to the Well of Moses and there is more. A host of independently discovered facts from art, science, religion and history fit within an era fairly well defined by the latter part of the VMs C-14 dating. Disguised references to generally unfamiliar historical traditions and societal events all but lost in the modern perspective.
If Newbold had known of the BNF Fr. 565 cosmos and the 43 undulations, perhaps he might not have picked Andromeda. Progress depends on the accumulation of valid information. It is the nature of the VMs artistry to put a spanner in the works - to intentionally cast doubt on the validity of the images. The best way to prevent discovery is to thwart the investigation. If differences result from flaws, why investigate that? But if flaws are intended to derail an investigation, ambiguity can conceal something 'hidden' and the list is growing - based on information contributed and ideas shared by these various independent investigations - even though they may not make sense at the time.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - DONJCH - 07-06-2022
So do I go down in history for identifying f70r1 as Saturn then? Should I fight and die on that hill?
Both Rene and Nick answered in that thread but nobody seemed to like it very much and it died for lack of interest.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - R. Sale - 07-06-2022
Well, it doesn't need to get that serious. However, when you've reached a conclusion, backed by some reasonable bits of evidence, why not go ahead and post the info? You may see something others have not. Others may then see something that you have not.
It's clear these illustrations are somewhat difficult. There's the Sun and the Moon and then who knows what? I'd say it is not a lack of interest, but the difficulty of interpretation that makes these images hard to explain. So then, it is the ongoing accumulation of information that will (hopefully) result in a better understanding of these representations, and that should happen more readily with an open exchange of ideas.
RE: Quire9-10 pattern - Ruby Novacna - 07-06-2022
Hello everyone!
My first question, why choose the seven planets? Maybe it is the Philolaus system?