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House of Visconti - Vonologia - 16-06-2017
Would like to start a thread to discuss the House of Visconti.
Particularly interested in Gian Galeazzo (1351-1402) and his daughter Vanentina Visconti (the Duchess of Orleans)
and any relationship to the VMS.
RE: House of Visconti - Paris - 16-06-2017
May I ask you why do you think there is a relationship between the Voynich manuscript and the House of Visconti ?
RE: House of Visconti - -JKP- - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 03:34 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Would like to start a thread to discuss the House of Visconti.
Particularly interested in Gian Galeazzo (1351-1402) and his daughter Vanentina Visconti (the Duchess of Orleans)
and any relationship to the VMS.
I was interested enough in this to read several historical novels based on this time period, especially those set around Lombardy and northern Italy and the Sforza, Visconti, and d'Este families and their predecessors.
I'm mostly a nonfiction reader (probably 90% of my reading), and historical novels are written mainly for plot and storytelling, but they can also provide a certain feeling for the time, place, and relationships between significant people if one reads about the same subject from the point of several different writers. Some of the historical novelists travel to the places they're writing about and spend years doing research.
For anyone who's interested, the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. does quite a good job of organizing the books according to subject matter and listing related subject matter.
RE: House of Visconti - Vonologia - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 08:12 PM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.May I ask you why do you think there is a relationship between the Voynich manuscript and the House of Visconti ?
Seize Soixante-Quatre reasons...Valentina Visconti.
RE: House of Visconti - Vonologia - 18-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 11:40 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(16-06-2017, 08:12 PM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.May I ask you why do you think there is a relationship between the Voynich manuscript and the House of Visconti ?
Seize Soixante-Quatre reasons...Valentina Visconti.
These facts come from internet sources, which can't even begin to be reliable, so true academics would want to look for dovetails. This is one of a few places that has reliable Voynich information, relative to the internet. I have no stake.
Have touched on many of your sites but couldn't possibly fathom it all...just not that smart. Sometimes it's good to know that
in advance.
Who, What, When, Where, Why and How?
When: 1404-1438 has been established with 95% accuracy.
Where: Italy, Germany, or France have all been bandied about?
Why: Some things can be established -- you would all know better.
But here is the crackpot case for the "Diary of Valentina Visconti."
Born either 1366, 1368, or 1371.
Born in Paris?
Might have been a third child but was considered an only because her two older brothers died?
The apple of her father's eye, who just happened to be the First Duke of Milan and a very prominent man.
What does every child want from their Father? Attention.
Mother who was French, died when Valentina was between 2 and 7 years old.
Had 8! children, of which 3 went on to have a "full" life.
Spoke three languages, including French and Latin.
Well read, and obviously had access to her father's library, which was extensive.
Loved her books.
Lost an Aries, her first, a son. Mar 25, 1390.
Lost another Aries/Taurus April 1401.
Other children were a Gemini, Virgo/Libra, Sagittarius, Cancer/Leo, Cancer and Sagittarius.
The only majority in the history of man: women. If you play the odds, it's a woman.
The level of intrigue in this period of French/Italian history is mind-numbing.
VM starts with herbs. Whimsical, idealistic, happy.
VM ends with writing. Something to say. No more pretty pictures of flowers.
The writing is not formal, but could certainly be considered an interpretation of the formal writing of the day.
And she certainly would have something to say...
Died in 1408.
The crossover between French and Latin could be explained if someone spoke French and was her own coding machine
from Latin to French, or had a built device that provided her one way to code so only she knew the clues.
With respect to f57v, has anyone ever discounted a "repeating key" Alberti Cipher?
Which, would, by the way, be technology that wasn't publicly known or available at the time?
17 is an unlucky number in Italy, but a woman from France could certainly have a sense of humor about it and be clever
all at the same time.
Not an academic, so this type of blather is exactly the type of blather that you would expect to see on the internet.
The difference between ignore and ignorance is a few letters.
"Vive La France."
...
RE: House of Visconti - Paris - 19-06-2017
Thanks Vonologia for this long answer.
Like you, I accept the datation of Carbon14 and the estimation of the years of 1404 and 1438 for this manuscript.
That means that the VM was written after the oldest date, 1438.
I don't understand why Valentina Visconti, who died in 1408, should be the writer of this mysterious manuscript.
If the writer/drawer of this manuscript belongs to the House of Visconti (I don't know if it's the case), it should be more logical to think to Margarita (1406-1466), Valentina's daughter. Or someone else.
RE: House of Visconti - Koen G - 19-06-2017
(19-06-2017, 09:25 AM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Like you, I accept the datation of Carbon14 and the estimation of the years of 1404 and 1438 for this manuscript.
That means that the VM was written after the oldest date, 1438.
I don't understand why Valentina Visconti, who died in 1408, should be the writer of this mysterious manuscript.
But if the range you accept is 1404 to 1438, doesn't that mean that the vellum could have been made and inscribed in 1404? Wouldn't that leave a window of at least three full years for someone who died in 1408 to have written the manuscript?
I don't support any Visconti hypothesis since I think the current manuscript was copied much more than authored, but I don't see anything unscientific about a posited date of creation between 1404 and 1408.
RE: House of Visconti - ReneZ - 19-06-2017
The Visconti's had a great library (Visconti-Sforza library), which was open to visitors. Chaucer, for one, visited it.
There are several catalogues of this library, including one written in 1426.
The library was taken to Blois (France) by Louis XII, and later from there to the national library in Paris.
One of the books that almost certainly (*) appears in the above-mentioned 1426 catalogue is BN MS Lat 6823, also known as the Manfredus herbal.
Now *if* (and that's still a big if) the Voynich author/artist was inspired by the Manfredus herbal for his oak+ivy illustration, at least we know he would have seen it in the Visconti-Sforza library in Pavia.
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Note (*): to make it even more complicated, Toresella has some objections against the identification of the Manfredus herbal with the entry in the 1426 catalogue.
RE: House of Visconti - Vonologia - 19-06-2017
(19-06-2017, 10:30 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Visconti's had a great library (Visconti-Sforza library), which was open to visitors. Chaucer, for one, visited it.
There are several catalogues of this library, including one written in 1426.
The library was taken to Blois (France) by Louis XII, and later from there to the national library in Paris.
One of the books that almost certainly (*) appears in the above-mentioned 1426 catalogue is BN MS Lat 6823, also known as the Manfredus herbal.
Now *if* (and that's still a big if) the Voynich author/artist was inspired by the Manfredus herbal for his oak+ivy illustration, at least we know he would have seen it in the Visconti-Sforza library in Pavia.
-
Note (*): to make it even more complicated, Toresella has some objections against the identification of the Manfredus herbal with the entry in the 1426 catalogue.
How about this one? 1395-1400. On Plants. World Digital Library.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: House of Visconti - -JKP- - 19-06-2017
(19-06-2017, 09:30 PM)Vonologia Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
How about this one? 1395-1400. On Plants. World Digital Library.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
That's a wonderful manuscript.