+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Marginalia (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-45.html)
+--- Thread: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. (/thread-5148.html)
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - ReneZ - 18-12-2025
That is Hans Sachs, but Hans Folz lived ~1440 - 1513.
I overlooked this in your earlier post, so the remark about concordance of liver and lung should probably be ignored.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 18-12-2025
I looked for some Hans Folz Fastnachtspiele, and they are indeed earlier than Sachs (late 15th century compared to mid 16th). He uses "pox" in the same way:
- Interjections, exclamations -> expressing emotion rather than meaning
- spoken by farmers
Wiki Wrote:He also wrote twelve Fastnachtsspiele, short plays that made light of people in medieval society, for instance farmers, priests, and the bourgeoisie.
Words spoken by farmers and similar folk, explicitly intended to make fun of them and the way they speak.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Bluetoes101 - 18-12-2025
(18-12-2025, 09:45 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(17-12-2025, 10:07 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if we can find other words people used other than "pox", if we could then finding examples would probably become exponentially easier
In the Fastnachtspiele, the more common spelling used it "potz" (which is also closer to the original "Gotts").
Not sure if you have seen this, but looks like there are plenty of (other context) examples if you include the "p/b" variation too. They are 16C examples, but a lot of them.
(Translated with chrome, may not be entirely accurate)
"botz,
papae, today spelled potz , an exclamation never appearing alone, always followed by a noun, which could seemingly be derived from botz = bosz, blow, as for example Fischart tonnerbotz for thunderclap Garg. 219ᵇ. 270ᵇ (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 206) sets botz for bosse , and thunder! itself forms an exclamation. However, it is more correct to take botz, like bocks and box ( p. 202, 203) , as a euphemism or parody of Godkotz also applies. In some formulas, all these words are exchanged, e.g., in potz tausend and kotz tausend, botz blut and kotz blut, in bocks marter and botz marter, bocks leber and botz leber;schende, blende, often associated with bocks , is also found after botz. The following list of the most common formulas can be supplemented in many ways from books of the 16th century."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Rafal - 18-12-2025
As a curiosity I may tell you that in modern Polish we have a similar exclamation "Rany koguta!" which means "Wounds of a cock". You get the idea. The comment at the link says it may be offensive and blasphemous for some people.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Actually my uncle used it a lot.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - JoJo_Jost - 18-12-2025
Potzblitz (Blitz=lightning) was a term, that was very common in Germany even 30 years ago and could even be found in comics. Potzblitz = Exclamation of surprise!
botz (from bux/buchs) is a Cologne dialect word meaning pants
But in Switzerland exist: Botz/Potz = Potz donner (thunder).
German dialects are extremely diverse.
i can only undestand a very few of them.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 18-12-2025
Relevant video about swearing oaths by parts of God's body: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Aga Tentakulus - 18-12-2025
Potz Blitz and Potz Donner are still in use in Switzerland today. More than you might think.
But what if I split ‘leber’ into ‘leb er’.
Conversely, ‘er leb’ probably. He lives.
But here I am reaching the limits of the sentence structure.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - ReneZ - 19-12-2025
(18-12-2025, 12:55 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I feel like a broken record here, but context matters.
Of course, absolutely!
While I am reasonably confident that 'poxleber' is indeed what it says on the MS, we don't yet know the context in the MS. This thread helps to find possibilities.
The first reasonable explanation that I know of was at the 2012 Mondragone event, where it was not brought in connection with a (minced) swear word, but with a recipe. He argued that the marginal drawing of an animal is similar enough to the Aries drawings to consider it a goat (which was not really considered before that).
The swear word connection was made later, by Rich on his blog, arguing that the first use of this was by Hans Sachs, so the word would be anachronistic. Already in his blog comments, people identified earlier examples (but still late for the Voynich MS). By now, more and more examples have been found, typically for minced swear words. (I mentioned the example of Folz in recognition of the word 'Everything' in the thread title).
Your example is from before(?) 1450. The anachronistic aspect no longer applies.
So what is the word doing there, on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ?
It seems we should now assume that it could be either case.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Bluetoes101 - 19-12-2025
I don't think it is a swear word, but a solemn oath by "the unwashed masses", considered blasphemous by "the church".
In this (Koen's) example we only have the view of "the church", so we can't know the true intent of "the unwashed masses". Maybe I am a sceptic, but I don't trust looking through the churches eyes. To know how people really used it and what they meant, we need to hear from them.
Though I do like to think it was like this
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 19-12-2025
(19-12-2025, 12:12 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your example is from before(?) 1450. The anachronistic aspect no longer applies.
1449, so technically the first half of the 15th century
While it does not mention "poxleber" specifically, I definitely agree that this sermon nullifies objections of anachronism (including my own). The author is complaining that people are swearing by "pox-bodypart", thereby not backing up their oaths with a proper witness. By 1449, the pox-swearing was clearly widespread among the commonfolk in the author's surroundings.
[A side note on the subtleties of swearing objections. I first said that people resorted to minced oaths because the Church didn't like them swearing by God. But this sermon voices the opposite sentiment. When you swear an oath, you have to swear it with God as your witness. You have to believe that Jesus' liver will be hurt when you break your promise or commit perjury. That's how serious swearing by God is. So when people start swearing by "pox", this author feels like they are dodging God not to avoid blasphemy, but rather to avoid having to tell the truth or keep up their end of the bargain. He wants them to swear by God instead of a "hircus". ]