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+--- Thread: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] (/thread-4341.html)
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - Bluetoes101 - 10-08-2024
Here's a fictional solution I just made (below). You can phonetically-hammer (I think I just made up a term..) the first paragraph in EVA to modern English, read from end to start.
So why is it bad?
1. It can't be repeated by others. I could sit 5000 people in a room and I doubt anyone would decipher the text the same way.
2. It can't be "measured". There are no more works of this nature to substantiate my claim and my rules are unclear.
I'm sure others will find very many ways in which this is bad, but I think these two are fundamental.
Lots of stuff can "work", but if it can't be repeated by others and it can't be "measured" in some way by peers the theory is "inconsequential" to quote Einstein, or less tactfully "belongs on the trash heap" to quote Neil Degrasse Tyson. Obviously a VM solution is not a physics solution, but I think the general idea is translatable to theories. My solution can't be used, so it is inconsequential. Throws in trash heap
cfhaiin cphar cthaiin chear y dair
Certain cipher, certain cheer. You dare
okan or otaiin daiin cthar roloty oteos oteey ooiin
Open or obtain my cipher(?) relatively go in(?)
sa daraiin cthes cthoary shod ykaiin or sheky syaiir
There are within clues, theory, should you-attain or you-seek to say
dan cthar cthar are shar chtaiin kair y or ckhar sory
Then cipher, cipher is shared. Certain care or your cipher sorry
sholdy kor y cthres shory shol ataiin ar ykal fachys
You-should care your ciphers surely shall contain actual facts
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - tavie - 25-03-2025
As Nablator said earlier, we hit a milestone today: the 60th You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to the Voynich manuscript was posted on this forum.
So I will redo the counts for the most common language solutions from when it was done about six months ago:
- Latin retains 1st place with 16 solutions
- English pushes into 2nd place with 5 solutions
- In third place is Hebrew with 4 solutions
Honourable mention to three languages with 3 solutions each: Turkic; Czech; and Italian, the latter which had two solutions in the last month or so.
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - Koen G - 26-03-2025
Latin first place is understandable. English second place is remarkable though...
Also, congratulations to French for finally getting on the board
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - oshfdk - 26-03-2025
(26-03-2025, 07:46 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Latin first place is understandable. English second place is remarkable though...
I guess this has something to do with the main language of voynich.ninja being English? I think it's possible there are some local Voynich MS forums in some non English speaking countries, where solutions in local language families are overrepresented.
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - tavie - 30-04-2025
Responding here because it was going OT on the other thread.
(30-04-2025, 05:44 PM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think discouraging people from publishing their complete solutions helps Voynich research either. It's quite possible that among the solutions already on the list there are a few that got some of the details right. Who knows. And someone looking through them might have an aha moment. If people stop proposing solutions out of fear of getting on the list, some of their insights will likely left unsaid. I think I have seen examples where a completely unrealistic solution attempt included a few unexpected and intriguing observations. The very necessity to publish a complete piece of a solution as opposed to some rambling remarks here and there, may make the author think a bit deeper.
I was speaking of the importance of warning people about the trap so that they do not become Solvers. I don't think Voynich research suffers because we are discouraging people from becoming Solvers and getting wedded to an incorrect solution that they will never change their minds about.
Our success in that field seems limited anyway - the solutions list grows and grows.
Koen's videos are likely more successful in inoculating people against solveritis, but the solvers list also in theory helps people see i) how easy it is to fool yourself that you've solved the manuscript (since all these people cannot be simultaneously right) and ii) what the common problems are with solutions, including the unexplained unlanguage-like behaviour of Voynichese patterns. When I was new, I gained a lot by reading what earlier posters were saying about the Turkish theory when it was first posted, and Nick's critique of Stephen Bax's work.
The vast majority of solutions on the list are simple substitution systems that ignore these Voynichese patterns. Their authors often do not know about these patterns, often deliberately so because they chose to avoid previous research and work. Many also do not provide complete translations, often only providing isolated words. Confirmation bias means that those that do provide more complete translations have an incentive precisely not to "think deeper" as they continue with their translation, and it becomes harder and harder to make their system work. So I think there is more to be gained by warning people about this trap before they are in it, and it's too late.
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - Koen G - 30-04-2025
The mere existence of a list this long should give anyone pause. In most cases it won't, cause they're still riding the dopamine high and don't want to get taken down. It might help in some cases though.
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - Ruby Novacna - 30-04-2025
It's sad
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - oshfdk - 30-04-2025
(30-04-2025, 06:29 PM)tavie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was speaking of the importance of warning people about the trap so that they do not become Solvers. I don't think Voynich research suffers because we are discouraging people from becoming Solvers and getting wedded to an incorrect solution that they will never change their minds about.
(30-04-2025, 07:03 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The mere existence of a list this long should give anyone pause. In most cases it won't, cause they're still riding the dopamine high and don't want to get taken down. It might help in some cases though.
I'm not sure I understand the reasons why you feel these attempts should be taken down, people should be prevented from being wedded to an incorrect solution, etc. As far as I remember the history lessons, Columbus was wrong, like stupidly wrong. He was ignoring the science, and in no way he could have reached Indies via the Atlantic, as he planned. His expedition was doomed to fail, he risked the lives of sailors, the ships and his reputation. But that's not the way he is remembered. Sometimes it's not about being right, it's just about pushing through. I don't think in any endeavour it makes sense to preemptively discount the power of blind luck. The only sure way of never solving the Voynich enigma is never trying to.
It's not like most people wedded to their ideas starve in the middle of the ocean, I suppose. So why spend so much effort on stopping them?
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - ReneZ - 30-04-2025
I am not aware that any 'Voynich solution proposer' has ever been successfully dissuaded from going ahead and showing it.
This may therefore be more of a theoretical discussion.
RE: Solutions [discussion thread - moved] - RobGea - 30-04-2025
The solutions cover a lot of ground , are there any specific criteria , that are needed for a concept to become a solution ?
(if i can find a valid word i was thinking about beefing up the Buffalo solution )