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+--- Thread: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. (/thread-5148.html)
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Bluetoes101 - 18-12-2025
Another (apparently) common thing in the medieval period Rafal (I don't have the link to person claiming this, but it seems sensible enough..) was writing charms against theft in the final page of books.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - ReneZ - 18-12-2025
Just to stay with the basics for a moment.
I think there still are the two possibilities: (1) that pox literally means 'of a male goat' or (2) that it is part of a minced oath.
For the latter, the text you found gives a significantly earlier source for this usage, and quite close to the date of the Voynich MS, which is certainly interesting.
Given that this thread is about the usage as a minced oath, I will not delve into the alternative possibility. Just a minor point, which you probably already know...
The 'Festnachtspiele' , which also include examples of poxleber, predate Hans Sachs, and were written o.a. by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., one or two decades before 1500.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - JoJo_Jost - 18-12-2025
(18-12-2025, 12:25 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think there still are the two possibilities: (1) that pox literally means 'of a male goat' or (2) that it is part of a minced oath.
After sleeping on it for a night, I definitely agree with Rene. There is now one more variant that has been confirmed by a source. We don't know whether it really refers to an edible pox liver or a curse/oath, etc. And the real problem is that there are possible readings of the following two words for both variants.
Based on my own completely unqualified attempts at translation, I believe that the second part is a mocking speech about the writer's “superior,” so in this context, I currently consider it more likely that a real liver is meant.
The source was also still available: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Jorge_Stolfi - 18-12-2025
(18-12-2025, 12:05 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If this writing turns out to be "Voynichese"
To be clear, I don't think that it is Voynichese, but that it was Voynichese.
All the best, --stolfi
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 18-12-2025
(18-12-2025, 12:25 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 'Festnachtspiele' , which also include examples of poxleber, predate Hans Sachs, and were written o.a. by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., one or two decades before 1500.
Rene, do you have a link to this earlier attestation? I only find it mentioned indirectly.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 18-12-2025
(17-12-2025, 10:07 PM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if we can find other words people used other than "pox", if we could then finding examples would probably become exponentially easier
In the Fastnachtspiele, the more common spelling used it "potz" (which is also closer to the original "Gotts").
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - ReneZ - 18-12-2025
My post got lost(?)
Second attempt...
I remember that Anton wrote about the Festnachtspiele here. I found this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Possibly better searches may turn up more.
There are some online versions of the Festnachtspiele, or parts thereof, but the first few I tried either are not searchable (scans of older prints) or have moved to unknown places.
Outside of this source, dialectal variations also exist, like potz- and poches. One may or may not 'count' these. (I think one should).
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 18-12-2025
I used Google Gemini to clarify the usage of the phrase in Sachs. (I gave it a pdf of the text and the LLM output looks reliable in this case).
Quote:In the scene you described from Hans Sachs' Shrovetide play Der Bauer im Fegefeuer (The Peasant in Purgatory), the peasant Heinz Düppel has just been drugged and moved to a dark cell to trick him into believing he has died and gone to Purgatory.
The Context of the Scene
Heinz wakes up in absolute darkness after being given a sleeping potion by the Abbot. He is disoriented and frightened because he cannot see or hear anything and feels only "four stone walls" around him. He tries to call for his wife, Els, to let him out, but a monk disguised as a spirit tells him he is now in the "fire house" (Purgatory) to suffer for the sin of his extreme jealousy.
The "Potz" Phrases
The phrases "Potz Lung" and "potz Leber" (literally "By [God's] lungs" and "by [God's] liver") are euphemistic oaths.
Origin: "Potz" is a corrupted, "softened" version of the German word Gottes (God's).
Purpose: During the 16th century, taking God's name in vain was considered a serious sin or even blasphemy. To avoid this while still expressing strong emotion, people replaced "Gott" with the similar-sounding "Potz" and attached it to various body parts (like lungs or liver).
Usage in the Text: Heinz uses these phrases twice:
- Upon waking up: To express his shock and confusion at being in a "dark hole".
- When complaining about his wife: Later, when he learns his wife "offered" a candle at his funeral that burned out before he could use it in Purgatory, he exclaims "Potz Lung' und Leber" to call her "stupid enough" for not providing him with light in the darkness.
In the "Peasant in Purgatory" story, Heinz Düppel is the stupid and sinful (jealous) character everyone is supposed to make fun of, the dumb comic relief. The audience mocks his belief that he has really gone to purgatory, which is actually a ruse by the other characters to punish him for his jealousy. It is this character that uses all the potz-phrases.
Interestingly, in this early modern German, the phrases are clearly used as an exclamation: "By God's liver and lung, where am I!?"
The sermon I shared is earlier (1449) and the author talks about the phrases in the context of perjury and false oaths.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - ReneZ - 18-12-2025
Perhaps a nitpick, but the Festnachspiele were late 15th century while Gemini refers to the 16th. This may be a normal AI 'inaccuracy'.
I also remember Anton writing that these terms were 'all over', which may have been an exaggeration, but it differs from Gemini's 2 counts.
By the way, there is also this paper: Eugene F. Clark, The Influence of Hans Folz on Hans Sachs, Modern Philology, Vol. 15, No. 6 (Oct., 1917), pp. 339-348
which can be found online.
The combination of lung and liver in both cases seems to me to be a clear example of either direct influence or wider usage.
RE: Everything about "pox leber" as a minced oath, and an earlier source. - Koen G - 18-12-2025
(18-12-2025, 11:08 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps a nitpick, but the Festnachspiele were late 15th century while Gemini refers to the 16th. This may be a normal AI 'inaccuracy'.
I also remember Anton writing that these terms were 'all over', which may have been an exaggeration, but it differs from Gemini's 2 counts.
I gave it a pdf of the Hans Sachs play of the "Peasant in Purgatory", which does contain two instances and is 16th century (1552). I have not seen any earlier attestations.