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+--- Thread: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v (/thread-5000.html)
Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 26-10-2025
I found this wheel in Raymundi Lulli's book ‘Testamentum duobus libris vniuersam artem chymicam complectens’, published in 1566, and it reminded me of 67v of the Voynich Manuscript, only in a version that was 100 years younger and therefore more modern. But Raymundi Lulli lives 1232 / 1316.
To recognise the similarity, one simply has to imagine placing the two Voynich pages on top of each other, so the idea goes. Here we have the four elements: air, water, fire, earth, and the terms in the Voynich Manuscript in the four corners of the page could be the same words.
Chemical processes are described, for example: washing the black into the white (air), and then the various possibilities are described in the circle, for example through distillation, extraction, etc.
I then translated the page in its entirety and compared it with the texts in the rays on the second page – in the somewhat desperate hope of finding a key, but unfortunately I found nothing. Nor did I find anything in the other inscriptions, but perhaps someone else here will discover something I overlooked (which is certainly not unlikely)... But it could just as well be something completely different...
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 26-10-2025
okchos?m = Terra
otaradain= Aer
akocde (?) Aqua
Ignis is painted over
In the inner circle:
Fetidum -> soaiin
insipidum-> dalam
dulce -> sory
amarum -> okoral
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 26-10-2025
to ur info:
There are approximately 50 words (excluding ‘per’) arranged radially in Lulli
and approximately 50 words in Vyonich (depending on how you count them).
In the left-hand Voynich image, there is also a narrow circle with inscriptions, similar to those found in Lulli.
There are four cardinal directions, each accompanied by text:
f67v2.11: dcheeor.ochepalain → ‘ablutio nigrum in album’
f67v2.13: okydshom.oepoaly → ‘reductio humidi in siccum’
f67v2.15: o.chekair.okolaig → ‘fixio spiritus in fermentum’
f67v2.17: qokoain.ockhey → ‘solutio grossi in simplum’
That the 9 = latin "um" seems to be the typical Brevigraph, is at least probable.
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - Ruby Novacna - 26-10-2025
(26-10-2025, 06:35 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
f67v2.11: dcheeor.ochepalain → ‘ablutio nigrum in album’
...
The word "ochepalain," in my opinion, could well be ακεφαλειν (ἀ + κεφαλόω) - remove the head or ἀκεφᾰλών - headless.
I don't know if this term could have a place in your schema.
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 26-10-2025
(26-10-2025, 09:47 PM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The word "ochepalain," in my opinion, could well be ακεφαλειν (ἀ + κεφαλόω) - remove the head or ἀκεφᾰλών - headless.
I don't know if this term could have a place in your schema.
Ablutio nigrum in album: Washing/cleaning (transformation through cleansing) from black to white. A term used in alchemy.
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 26-10-2025
I looked it up:
Per inhumationem = by burial / interment
but it doesn't really fit
In this section u can read this:
Per inhumationem
Per calcinationem
Per distillationem
Per humidorum viscificationem
Per siccorum mortificationem
Per desiccationem
Per humectationem
Per infrigidationem
Per extractionem
Per appulsionem
Per expulsionem
Per digestionem
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 27-10-2025
The Rosetta Stone?
If the Voynich writer copied from Lulli, then he should have used similar terms. I have compared the terms from both circles. However, we do not know whether the 1560 editions adopted the same order as the original 13th-century version, but let us assume that they did, because the order should also be the same. Note: the per / by may simply have been omitted or added in the new version by Lulli.
Then we would have a lot of terms that match the Voynich text.
It is exciting that we have here the term for ‘daiiin’, and daiin which also has a lot to do with what the Voynich manuscript is about!
Daiiin = planting, growth, vitalisation
pchodaiin = by drying out
okeeodaiin = by liquefaction
cheodaiin = by softening; there are actually references where fisher-nets are softened with water, and here it says ‘mollificationem’.
Does "daiin" have something to do with water?
and, as you can easily verify, I have not changed the order!
Does anyone have an opinion on this? Do you see any other relevant combinations?
Here the list:
Aer
Per inhumationem by burial / interment ytchey
Per calcinationem by calcination / annealing keeochy
Per distillationem by distillation dair
Per humidorum
viscificationem by thickening the moist substances ockhy keechey
Per siccorum
mortificationem by (killing/fixing) the dry substances Chy koldy
Per desiccationem by drying out pchodaiin
Per humectationem by moistening otch
Per infrigidationem by cooling oekeeody
Per extractionem by extraction dcheeos
Per appulsionem by approximation, movement towards qokeeeody
Per expulsionem by expulsion oees
Per digestionem by digestion/processing olcheeg
Terra
Per incretionem by storage, growth ykcho
Per mollificationem by softening cheodaiin
Per inhumationem by embedding, burial ypcheg
Per indurationem by hardening, solidification oty
Per animationem by animation opcheey
Per congelationem by solidification, freezing chsocheey
Per attractationem by attraction, drawing near chedaly
Per nutricationem by nutrition/food ykeeey
Per solutionem by dissolution qokeey
Per partim commixtionem by partial mixing chokeear
Per subtilisationem by refinement osheey
Per sublimationem by sublimation keeody
Per vegetationem by growth, vegetation chedals
Ignis
Per congelationem by freezing, solidification ofarshey
Per solutionem by solution, dissolution qokcheor
Per vegetationem by planting, growth, vitalisation daiiin
Per elementationem by insertion into the elements oeees
Per instrumentalitatem by the instrumentality of tools otechy
Per vivificationem by animation o,kee
Per liquefactionem by liquefaction okeeodaiin
Per indulcorationem by sweetening, softening sai!r
Per desponsationem by ‘combining’ two substances dairal
Per reductionem by reduction, reduction oksheeoda
Per commixtionem by mixing oraral (or.aral)
Per resuscibilitatem by revivability, possibility of animation olar aroka
Aqua
Per liquefactionem by liquefaction otorkeol
Per divisionem by division / fragmentation orsheey (or.sheey to be read as one word)
Per corruptionem by decay / decomposition dary
Per calcinationem by calcination / annealing (burning out) okechey
Per exsiccationem by drying out cheody
Per condensationem by condensation cheky
Per putrefactionem by putrefaction / decay otechodor
Per rarefactionem by dilution / volatilisation o!dreeey
Per animationem by animation / enlivening chockhdy
Per elementationem by elementation (insertion into the order of the elements) cheockhy
P.S. In my opinion, Ignis was painted over, maybe because of the word Ignis = Fire, but also purgato
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - R. Sale - 27-10-2025
Have you identified the face with the headband and any historical artistic representations?
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 27-10-2025
(27-10-2025, 08:52 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Have you identified the face with the headband and any historical artistic representations?
No, I haven't. I only have the items I've presented here. But I suspect that the star with the winding lines (rays) that look roughly like the rays of the sun, i.e. the face with the headband, is simply meant to indicate that this right-hand graphic should be connected to the left-hand one at this point.
RE: Raymundi Lulli und Folio 67v - JoJo_Jost - 27-10-2025
Info: According to current research, the ‘Testamentum duobus libris universam artem chymicam complectens’ is not by Ramon Llull, but a pseudo-Lullian (falsely attributed) work on alchemy. Researchers therefore tend to refer to it as a pseudepigraph rather than a modern ‘forgery’.
Today, it is attributed to an anonymous author (‘Magister Testamentum’) and is believed to have been written in the 14th century.