The Voynich Ninja

Mr. Sale has mentioned nebuly lines in a couple of his posts. Nebuly lines in the VMS were first noticed by Ellie (as far as I know) and named by Mr. Sale.

I have a really big file of images from different places showing nebuly lines in art throughout history down to the time of the VMS.

Some of you have already been sent the file. If others would like to receive a copy via email Dropbox attachment, please send me a private message with your email address.

I think the file reveals the most similar contemporary book to the VMS in relation to the nebuly line images found so far. And gives pictorial proof for the assertion.

If you have a better candidate, I'd love to see it and where it is from. Please prove me wrong, if you can.

Let me know.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee

Don't know who first noticed nebuly lines in the VMS, but this is a subject that has been discussed quite long ago.

Btw, last year I You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a post aiming to summarize all cloudband occurrences in the VMS. I provide an example there from Basel A II 2, which was written in 1397.

I take it that Don's attention was drawn to this topic by reading the comments from R.Sale and Ellie Velinska, and Ellie's blog. That, of course, is a completely valid acknowledgment that one could make.
Such courtesies are also commonly found in more official publications.

For me, this imagined need to state who was first is an unfortunate consequence of on-going discussions in this direction, in all Voynich discussion boards in the last 5+ years.

Acknowledging something is really very simple. One just needs to write how it was. Whom one wants to thank for what.

References and acknowledgments have to be correct. It is better to have none, than to have incorrect ones.

Hi Rene,

In my acknowledgement of Ellie, it wasn't memory problems about if she was the person from whom the information first came to me, but my lack of knowledge if she was the first to have discovered it.

I try to acknowledge suppliers of major idea sources and Library sources of images, in particular to Professor Stolffi's many ideas and Concordance and those who have given me reason to notice anything I hadn't previously noticed, especially things that seem or are important.

As I wrote Diane the other day, I refuse to do it for every minor source, mention or idea I find.

I don't mind sharing credit for an idea or source for the larger or more important (in my mind, anyway) ideas or finds. 

I'm not expecting to make any money off this or see much credit, even if I'm right about anything or everything. After two days, who will be interested in the name of somebody who showed the way to read and understand the most mysterious (and boring) book in the world? Most of the ones who know my name still won't agree with my solution. And to the rest, the book won't be mysterious any more.

Do you remember the names of the people who figured out the second most mysterious book in the world? I don't. And I figure to be forgotten just about as quickly, even if I'm right.

Most of the time, I try to be polite, respectful and don't mind sharing any credit.

Diane, being a professional researcher, has differing ideas about giving credit. As do you.

I try not to make my stuff any more involved or longer in length or footnoted than necessary, most of the time.

So, generally, I'm in agreement with you.

But not always.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee

PS - I am only a retired old carpenter/puzzle person who enjoys figuring out puzzlements - not someone who makes his living with footnotes or by leaving them out. And I have no problem with sharing credit with those persons who try to inform or help others.

It's only a puzzle...but a good one...to me.

My turn. It's simple. After Ellie posted the comparison of the VMs illustration with that of the d' Oresme cosmos - (quite convincing), and whenever it was, after that I read her work and looked at the two representation, it occurred to me, because I had been investigating heraldry, that the outer line of the circle in the VMs example is a nebuly line according to standard heraldic tradition dating well before VMs parchment dates.

I put a name on it and I posted it. No big deal. I also found a few examples of nebuly lines in the leaves of the botanical section and all over the place in Quire 13. Don discovered an excellent example of a much more elaborate type of nebuly line in the VMs central rosette. Elaborate meaning that the individual waves and troughs have multiple little bumps on each one, sometimes a sort of head-and-shoulders effect, instead of the single smooth bulb of the standard definition.

While the intent of the two illustrations appears to be copacetic, the level of artistic skill in d' Oresme is far superior. Particularly in the cosmic boundary, where the VMs shows only a basic version of the line. The level of detail in d' Oresme invites an almost immediate comparison with Christine de Pizan's "Book of the Queen". Don discovered the examples of the Apocalypse Tapestry and was off like a hound on a scent to compile his file of photos.

I'll bet this Basel illustration is a new one. Looking at the illustration on 167r, this is definitely a highly elaborated type of nebuly line. In the lower right there is a second set of arches, and multiple bumps for each wave and trough.

Nebuly lines are relevant to VMs investigation because the author shows a penchant for their use. There are a host of examples where nebuly line are not used, but in the VMs, there they are.

In the d' Oresme example, the nebuly line / cloud band is used to designate a sort of cosmic boundary. However more illustrations are found where this boundary is associated with the manifestation of divinity, both classical and Christian. And not all manifestations are of the regularly patterned, nebuly / cloudy sort, painted in blue and white. Some are of the fiery, solar sort, using indented and rayonny heraldic lines and colored red, orange, gold and yellow to match, like the Bedford Master example. Others examples use clouds that are more natural and irregular. They lack the repeating structure. And many artists omit this technique altogether.

One weakness in the d' Oresme comparison is the visual distinction between the plain nebuly line of the VMs depiction and the elaborate boundary line of d' Oresme's cosmos. This might even lead some to see this comparison as slightly more tenuous than otherwise. But here's the trick. The author can do a really good job at making an elaborated version of a nebuly line. The band around the central rosette is great example. Imagine if the VMs artist had used that elaborate cloud band for this VMs version of the cosmos instead of a plain nebuly line.

However, that is not what the VMs provides, for whatever reason. It's hard to keep secrets with all the cards face up on the table, all illustrations plainly there. Some trickery is required. Where there is a reality that is glaringly obvious, adjustments have been made to disguise, but not to deny identity. Blue stripes cannot be red.

Perhaps the author then relies on the intelligence of the reader to know that a nebuly line in the one illustration and another version of a nebuly line in the second case are really two representations of the same thing, if that reader ever knew a nebuly line in the first place, and then consider whether those lines were interchangeable. And, if so, how much might that increase the visual correspondence of the original comparison? And how will that affect further VMs investigation? Nebuly lines may still have more to tell us.

(26-07-2016, 11:32 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I put a name on it and I posted it. No big deal. I also found a few examples of nebuly lines in the leaves of the botanical section and all over the place in Quire 13. Don discovered an excellent example of a much more elaborate type of nebuly line in the VMs central rosette. Elaborate meaning that the individual waves and troughs have multiple little bumps on each one, sometimes a sort of head-and-shoulders effect, instead of the single smooth bulb of the standard definition.

Is this the one with the multiple bumps one of these or are we talking about another?

(26-07-2016, 06:34 PM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Rene,

In my acknowledgement of Ellie, it wasn't memory problems about if she was the person from whom the information first came to me, but my lack of knowledge if she was the first to have discovered it.

I try to acknowledge suppliers of major idea sources and Library sources of images, in particular to Professor Stolffi's many ideas and Concordance and those who have given me reason to notice anything I hadn't previously noticed, especially things that seem or are important.

Hello Don,

no criticism was implied.
The whole point of acknowledging and citing has been blown out of proportion, while indeed there is nothing
mysterious or difficult about it.

In formal (scientific) papers it gets a bit more complicated, but we are not dealing with that here.

Linda et al.,

Those are some interesting examples, and new to me. It would help to know the what, when and where of those illustrations. Don's the one who has worked on the collection. He'll have to say what's what with the images.

How about putting this in the suggestion box, if both are willing? Why not have the Ninja Library open a gallery wing where Don and others can post images relevant to this discussion of nebuly lines?

Since Ellie's original comparison is with the d' Oresme cosmos illustration:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

The d' Oresme illustration therefore becomes the initial standard for comparison. And the d' Oresme illustration clearly shows an elaborated nebuly line much like that in Linda's first example. Her other examples have certain idiosyncrasies. The blue ring in the second illustration is a sort of hybrid that is bumpy on the outside and a smooth, single bulb on the inside. And look at those golden rayonny lines! And again there are rayonny lines in the third illustration, but we are not looking at these lines because they have not been identified in the Vms. We are looking at nebuly lines because they exist in the VMs illustrations.

The heart of the comparison is between the d' Oresme illustration and the nebuly band in the VMs Central Rosette. And also to look for similar artistry to see what it can tell us.

I have been more interested in heraldry from the VMs Pisces and Aries pages. As far as Don's 'geographical' pointers, heraldry contributes several things. First of all, there is heraldry,  which is mainly central and western European. The VMs heraldry makes historical connections. And those connections refer to a history and tradition in the Catholic church  that is almost two centuries old by the time the VMs parchment was produced. White Aries is 'toned-down' and tucked away representation of the Fieschi insignia and the cardinal's red galero.

Not only is there a connection to the Papacy of Innocent IV, which was mainly spent in Lyon, there is also an English connection to the late reign of Henry III. This is most clearly show by the heraldic example of concentric circles on VMs Pisces. This is a pattern called gurges, which is Latin for whirlpool. Circles were an early alternative that was soon superseded by a large spiral. Through heraldic canting, the design was adopted by the de Gorges family, who were of Norman descent in England in the reign of Henry III. And so far, this is something that has no alternative explanation. Furthermore, this and other things point to Devon and near Plymouth as I posted in the discussion of the semy of roundels.

The inclusion of rather obscure heraldic examples like papelonny and gurges, previously unrecognized, show the author's depth of knowledge in heraldry and regarding certain historical events and the capacity to use them for an intended purpose. However there are still significant difficulties in discerning the vantage point from which these perspectives were obtained.

(27-07-2016, 07:02 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda et al.,

Those are some interesting examples, and new to me. It would help to know the what, when and where of those illustrations.

First example I posted was from L'estoire del Saint Graal, circa 1316, France, (Saint-Omer or Tournai) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Last 3 are from same source, Rothschild Canticles, circa 1300, Flanders & Rhineland. Many other examples within. You can see/get the whole PDF here:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

To identify different types of nebuly lines is, probably, an important task in the context of heraldry, but to see the whole picture of an artistic representation in the VMs  the main thing is to understand, what such details could show in full. We only need to know, what every special reflection substitutes. I'm sure that this is just a style of drawing of the VMs artist/author, particularly these details are not unusual for supposed time of the VMs origin, the rest is unusual. 
Wavy lines (or nebuly lines), when they are not on a coat of arms, always represent clouds, sky, air or steam - all here know.
Blue wavy lines - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
Gold waves - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 
Red waves - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.; heat
Blue-red or blue-gold waves - the mix of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Sometimes the combination of wavy lines and rays is used to represent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The central rosette of the f86 (Rosettes) contains three artistic ornaments: bulbs, wavy (nebuly) lines and rays


I think, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. quite fits.