The Voynich Ninja

There is only one type of nebuly line in heraldry, to my knowledge, and that is the simple version.

Heraldry supplies a terminology to distinguish various decorative lines of division.
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Where the fancy bits come in is from artistic elaboration. The d' Oresme cosmos corresponds to the VMs illustration in Ellie's example. However the visual similarity would be even greater if the band of 'clouds and steam' from the central rosette illustration could be transposed to replace the plain nebuly line that the illustration displays. The combination of these two VMs elements would make the similarity with the d' Oresne illustration second to nothing I've seen so far. Though I'm certainly no authority. The VMs artist had the ability that the rosette pattern shows, but, in effect, decided to use a much plainer and more dissimilar version of a nebuly line. For the same reason that the strongest historical identification that VMs heraldry provides is found on the back side of an optical illusion. This says to me that the VMs is not a typical sort of expository text, not a straight forward setting forth of what the author wants the reader to know. Instead the text contains certain items that are seemingly set to test the would-be reader. Do the lines and patterns we see pass as generic, nameless designs? Or can they be named on the basis of a standard and traditional system of heraldry and then openly investigated?

(26-07-2016, 12:11 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Don't know who first noticed nebuly lines in the VMS, but this is a subject that has been discussed quite long ago.

Btw, last year I You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. a post aiming to summarize all cloudband occurrences in the VMS. I provide an example there from Basel A II 2, which was written in 1397.

As a general response to several of the preceding posts (not specifically yours, Anton)...


Part of the problem of attribution is that some things are obvious to some and not to others, depending on their background.

For example, no one would cite the first person to claim that the plant drawings look like plants. It's obvious to most people.

To me the fact that there are nebuly-style lines (regardless of what they may represent) is just as obvious as the fact that the plants are plants, because I was already familiar with them from studying old paintings and illustrations. I had collected dozens of examples of nebuly long before I saw the word "nebuly" mentioned by others in the context of the VMS. The idea of crediting the "first" to refer to them as nebuly lines wouldn't cross my mind any more than crediting the first to call the plants plants.

The same is true for the gallows characters that might be pilcrows (I'm still researching this and don't have proof one way or another yet, but I have a mountain of data and HOPE to someday settle the matter, at least to my own satisfaction). I have a desktop-publishing background, among other things, and so the resemblance to pilcrows/capitula was as obvious to me as the resemblance of the "a" and "o" glyphs to the Latin "a" and "o" in the first five minutes I looked at the manuscript. Again, the idea of crediting the "discovery" of pilcrows probably wouldn't occur to me unless I were elbowed and told that not everyone has a DTP background and would recognize them right away AND because no one has yet PROVEN whether they are, in fact, pilcrows.


So on it goes. Latin abbreviations are obvious to me, but not obvious to someone who is new to paleography. We're all on different parts of the learning curve. I know almost nothing about heraldry and thus would have to devote a lot of time to figuring out whether a series of patterns were indeed heraldic rather than simply a series of common patterns. I wouldn't recognize it right away, as I would other things, and thus would be likely to cite the sources that helped me get up to speed.


Citations are an individual decision. I have no hesitation in giving credit to those who give me a hand up the ladder but I'll be honest in saying I'm reluctant to credit someone who I've never read or heard of in a matter for which I have a strong background myself. The only time I might do that is if there is a requirement to cite "prior art" as there is with patents and some academic journals. You need to demonstrate not so much that you've read them (or were influenced by them) but that you know of their existence and thus are not repeating old news. If someone did genuinely influence me (as opposed to mentioning something that is intuitively obvious to me, even if not to others), I cite them.

(27-07-2016, 10:17 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The central rosette of the f86 (Rosettes) contains three artistic ornaments: bulbs, wavy (nebuly) lines and rays

I would also mention the prominent "pipes". I think the image on the right appears in Don's collection. According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it represents the four winds and comes from Konrad Kyeser, Bellifortis, Germany 15th century, Besançon, Bibliothèque municipale, ms. 1360, fol. 4v.

(28-07-2016, 09:26 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(27-07-2016, 10:17 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The central rosette of the f86 (Rosettes) contains three artistic ornaments: bulbs, wavy (nebuly) lines and rays

I would also mention the prominent "pipes". I think the image on the right appears in Don's collection. According to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., it represents the four winds and comes from Konrad Kyeser, Bellifortis, Germany 15th century, Besançon, Bibliothèque municipale, ms. 1360, fol. 4v.

I agree, especially as because their number are 72.

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Set a task to draw a flower (not from life) to 10 people, you will see 10 different pictures.
Set a task to depict something abstract to 10 people, you will be wondered of that you see.
Set a task to depict something abstract, but earlier represented by someone, with the aim to make its sense obscure / unrecognizable, and, in the same time, to save its indications. Well, this is the most difficult task.
Everyone can see two mountains or volcanoes on the f86v3, at least, something close to each ones. Try to depict the left mountain in view from above, but just in the same style. I think, we will see a picture, close to the central rosette of the "Rosettes" chart.
See below my examples, including that, how I would depict (generally)  the left mountain of the f86v3 and the central rosette in side view (without towers and tent) in the usual way.


As was mentioned by Marco, the border pipes could represent 72 angel's trumpets, i. e. imply 72 angels surrounding the foot of that mountain.

To me, it's not about attribution. It's about definition. Heraldry is a valid, historical field of knowledge predating the manufacture of VMs parchment by roughly 200 years or more and heraldry provides definitions of the lines of field division as I posted just above, definitions of the patterns of ordinaries and sub-ordinaries and rules for the choice and combination of tinctures.

Wolkenands and nebuly lines are not the same thing. Nebuly lines can be seen as a basic pattern in some, but certainly not all examples of cloud bands. In the works of Christine de Pizan, the 'Book of the Queen' used an elaborated nebuly line, while the 'Knight's Book' used a wavy line and rainbows to set off the manifestations of various classical deities. There are hints of these rainbows in VMs Quire 13 - (not my discovery) - by the way.

Where are the wolkenbands in the VMs? Are they in the nebuly plant leaves? Can they be found in Quire 13? Had someone pointed out *that particular band* in the central rosette before Don saw it?  And Ellie's comparison with the d' Oresme cosmos, now there is a wolkenband in d' Oresme, but the VMs gives us what? A generic, meandering line that wobbles back and forth? Isn't that a helpful definition??

Heraldry provides a clear definition. But without heraldry, I suppose old, generic wobbly will have to do.

Sorry to be picky, but since terminology and definitions are important, there are a few difficulties with the recent reference to "bulbs, wavy (nebuly) lines and rays".

Rays: The pointed shapes in the outer ring labelled 'light halo' are good. And possibly all the hair-like lines - okay
Wavy (nebuly) lines: 'clouds and steam'  Lines are either wavy or nebuly, according to definition. Nebuly lines are bulbous. These lines in the central rosette are more complex than simple bulbs. Technically, the line has a sort of continuous, running 'mmm' shape, which would be an engrailed line on the heraldic chart. An invected version of the nebuly pattern was also posted a while back.
Bulbs:  'stones, ground?' So the bulbs are already incorporated as the waves and troughs of the nebuly line. What I see then are several bands that have an alternated, overlapping scale pattern - a fish-scale pattern or scale-mail armor, fastened with rivets. - Rather than having bulbs used twice.

Definitions are significant. Definitions take something that was generic, unnoticed and unnamed and turn it into something that has a name and an existence. An old dust-covered, historical existence perhaps, but an existence nonetheless.  Naming something provides an ideological identification by which things can be known and associated without a total reliance on absolute visual similarity. Heraldry provides a set of definitions and examples with interesting historical correspondences in the first three pages of the VMs Zodiac. I am suggesting that where a valid reference system exists and appears to be applicable, why not try it and see how it goes?

A quick look at coats of arms with nebuly lines tends to point toward England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, at least so far. Actually one from Australia came up. Probably because I'm searching in English though.

I would like to again make the offer of the nebuly line file I have put together showing a lot of nebuly line images (hundreds) down to (and past) the time of the VMS.

I have just sent it to Anton, so maybe he can tell you if it is worth looking at.

Some of you may have already received it - if so, nothing has been added beyond the comparison of the VMS to another early manuscript that is the closest match to the VMS that I can find (in relation to the nebuly line images).

If you would like a copy, please send me your email address by private message in the VN blog/forum/whatever this is.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee

Don,

Lots of questions; lots of answers. I should write a book. I know you've been thoroughly involved in your own investigations, and you have some familiarity with mine from a while back. New things have been added from time to time. I have primarily moved here to the VMsNinja, and have posted on several things, besides heraldry. So there is a little backlog of guapo to look at. And the answer is hidden in there somewhere. It'sssssss, ..... the Golden Key.

My method of attack on the VMs is to use traditional heraldry of an appropriate chronology as a standard for the interpretation of certain illustrations in the VMs Zodiac. Heraldic interpretation opens a door of discovery. All of this is pictorial, not written.

I think we have all been searching the Vms to try and explain various parts. Here is an example where a traditional system of communication makes a number of different connections in a particular location. And the different connections then turn out to be historically entwined with the Genoese Popes. And that seems significant to me.

The consideration of unexpected languages also led to the topic of pattern recognition - referring in particular to the profusion of pairings to be found in the medallions of the first five VMs houses of the zodiac. Not to mention the unexpected (totally gonzo) method by which it was accomplished. There are pairings compounded on pairings and this continues from the top of Pisces in the tub patterns of the outer ring. And here again the pairings are compounded. This is the paring paradigm. The path of investigation is marked by pairs - like lights on a garden path. Pairing is significant in the heraldic establishment of a historical identification. Besides the Fieschi insignia other potential armorial identifications include Chateaubriand, de Gorges, la Zouche, Berrington of Chester, Albizzi of Florence, Thomas de Kent and a fellow known as Otto the Archdeacon, the last two recorded twice in early English armorial rolls.

If the historical connection can be made, then the VMs White Aries illustration shows an example of a fancy textual marker in a circular band of text, with a blue-striped heraldic insignia attached directly to it. Two rectangles with a common side. This occurrence is unique in the VMs. I think it implies the two things are connected.

Seeing the figures hierarchically placed in the celestial spheres, as pope and cardinal. And recalling the historical phrase, 'The pope holds the keys to heaven.' And in consideration that the existence of three simultaneous popes, resolved at the Council of Constance overlaps with the early part of the parchment manufacture dates. Perhaps we will recall that keys are considered to be a papal attribute.

According to tradition, as also seen in heraldry, the pope has two keys: the silver key to the earthly realms and the golden key to the heavens. And, in the White Aries illustration, the figure is looking to the *second* patterned marker that is just out of reach. That is the Golden Key. The purpose of heraldry in this instance is to validate specific textual markers. This is a construction that clearly has the capacity to function as a text delivery system. Is it there by accident? Is it there unused? I don't think so.

In addition, the text in the outer band of White Aries has certain qualities. In comparison with all other VMs Zodiac texts, it is unique in the number of words that are duplicated. Many words start with EVA 'o'. And 'o' is the first letter of the seventeen symbol sequence of f57v. And the vast majority of the symbols in the Golden Key text are a limited set from this sequence.

I don't seem to do well with potential linguistic investigations. What I've tried has failed. But if this text segment has been selectively put forth by the VMs author, then there should be a good reason for it. What can this text segment tell us? And how can we move further along this path of investigation? Given the examples of detailed construction involved so far, like the papelonny pun, can we ignore it?

How do you/we use the heraldic findings and others in a solution? That's still my question.

Without more, it is a dead end. Without an attack plan and line of departure,...that's all, folks.

Thank you.

Don of Tallahassee