Don,
Apparently I'm getting old and mumbly. Let me try to be more concise. In the Middle Ages heraldry was a science, a field of knowledge. I use heraldry as a data base to investigate and interpret the VMs illustrations. This is an ongoing investigation, even though there have been a series of surprising discoveries, one of which led to your interesting work with the visual history of nebuly lines, though perhaps there is still more to do. As there is in other areas as well.
Heraldry does not contain any proposed linguistic solution. Instead, VMs heraldry provides historical grounding. Historical grounding establishes a basis validated by historical fact. And historical fact is an external, independent reality. And this is in a manuscript where external, independent reality is clearly at a premium. When that basis is common to both author and reader, then communication can take place. Having a common reality (a common reality that is paired) hopefully restrains the reader from wandering off in all sorts of imagined interpretations.
Heraldry does make certain suggestions regarding a linguistic solution. And the investigation continues. I don't see an easy solution. If my heraldry investigation is not of interest to you, my apologies for mistaking your interest as genuine.
No, Mr. Sale, my interest is genuine.
I cannot find any basis for what you believe about the base of the VMS being heraldry or that any heraldry is involved, at all.
I am trying to tie all the various things I think I have found in the text and images together - alphabet, method of constructing words or deconstructing them, sequence of steps, the glyphs and words as found in the VMS, code abbreviations and the seeming logical abbreviations they seem to show of the words they are shown as codes for, the presence of a number of the Group I codes on the pages for which their images are shown which are the first word on the page and all the other things. There is no heraldry I can find.
That's why I keep asking how you think the text words and heraldry items are connected.
My interest is genuine. But, I'm not convinced of your approach or that the items you feel you have discovered are germane to the solution.
That's why I keep asking for more...maybe something that connects with the deconstruction scheme that I have shown IS present. Or the alphabet. Or any of the other things.
I'm sorry that your evidence does not convince me. There is not enough of it and that paucity does more to convince me you are wrong.
It's not personal, just a matter of being convinced you are on the right track. Even if you are on the right track, I see no way for you to verify it like I am trying to do, other than looking at images and making unverifiable connections of things you think you see in the VMS with heraldry. I need that verification, as does, seemingly, everyone else, about your ideas. Or mine.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
Linda,
I think the first example is the prize in this group. A plain, traditional, nebuly line in black and white, Sable et Argent. It's from Genoa and it predates VMs parchment manufacture. I clicked on the father who also apparently had the same armorial insignia. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there is no corresponding insignia in the VMs, but interesting none the less.
The insignia that is relevant to the Genoese popes is that of the Fieschi family. The blazon for their insignia is Bendy, Argent et Azure. Having a blazon or verbal description can sometimes help to clarify subtle differences between patterns. It also helps to know the rules for tincture placement, particularly in the case of bendy patterns. In the Fieschi blazon, argent, listed first, is the primary tincture and azure is secondary. Rules for tincture placement on bendy patterns put the primary color in the first swatch at the lower dexter side. [Southwest on a map.] So the example of the Comune di V* has Azure as its primary tincture and the blazon for the field would be Bendy, Azure et Argent (leaving out the additional elements). The colors are reversed from the Fieschi blazon. This has been a matter of much confusion. Wikipedia had the Fieschi insignia colors reversed for years. And there have been and may still be other examples of the reversed version.
What identifies the blue-striped insignia in the White Aries illustration is not based on a single, definitive, interpretation. First it is necessary to see that the radial interpretation of the blue-striped patterns is not the only possible interpretation presented by the illustration. And even with the bendy pattern in blue and white, there are multiple historical possibilities. What makes the identification start to click is that the non-radial interpretation presents a *pair* of bendy patterns. Add in the red galero and the Fieschi historical connections with this tradition, the proper hierarchical placement of the two respective figures in the celestial spheres and there has to be some question as to how and why such a unique historical reference might be found or alluded to in this unexpected context. Further heraldic investigations reveal other confirmations which support this identification.
(30-07-2016, 08:14 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Linda,
I think the first example is the prize in this group. A plain, traditional, nebuly line in black and white, Sable et Argent. It's from Genoa and it predates VMs parchment manufacture. I clicked on the father who also apparently had the same armorial insignia. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there is no corresponding insignia in the VMs, but interesting none the less.
The insignia that is relevant to the Genoese popes is that of the Fieschi family. The blazon for their insignia is Bendy, Argent et Azure. Having a blazon or verbal description can sometimes help to clarify subtle differences between patterns. It also helps to know the rules for tincture placement, particularly in the case of bendy patterns. In the Fieschi blazon, argent, listed first, is the primary tincture and azure is secondary. Rules for tincture placement on bendy patterns put the primary color in the first swatch at the lower dexter side. [Southwest on a map.] So the example of the Comune di V* has Azure as its primary tincture and the blazon for the field would be Bendy, Azure et Argent (leaving out the additional elements). The colors are reversed from the Fieschi blazon. This has been a matter of much confusion. Wikipedia had the Fieschi insignia colors reversed for years. And there have been and may still be other examples of the reversed version.
What identifies the blue-striped insignia in the White Aries illustration is not based on a single, definitive, interpretation. First it is necessary to see that the radial interpretation of the blue-striped patterns is not the only possible interpretation presented by the illustration. And even with the bendy pattern in blue and white, there are multiple historical possibilities. What makes the identification start to click is that the non-radial interpretation presents a *pair* of bendy patterns. Add in the red galero and the Fieschi historical connections with this tradition, the proper hierarchical placement of the two respective figures in the celestial spheres and there has to be some question as to how and why such a unique historical reference might be found or alluded to in this unexpected context. Further heraldic investigations reveal other confirmations which support this identification.
I have no experience with heraldry, so I'm going to have to take your word on all that! But I found enough to see some similarities between some of the heraldry and the imagery, and I think I understand now what you mean regarding the red galeros, so am beginning to see your point better. I haven't spent much time on the "zodiac" section although when I was searching vords in various non-plant pages in voynichese.com, the vords show up mostly everywhere but in the plants (but some plants too, darn it). This makes me think that quire 14, including the rosettes, quire 13, the "astronomy", "astrology", and "recipes" are more related than they might seem. I do see connections in the imagery with other possibly religious references, such as Ecumenical Council locations, so I could see this being possibly worked into the imagery as you say. Finding it difficult to get to a database of heraldry that is useful to the layman, but I'll keep my eyes peeled for any others I come across that have any resonance with the imagery.
Don,
Okay, great. If your really are interested, look at the tub patterns in the outer ring of Pisces and on the Aries pages. Compare those patterns with the patterns found in any standard heraldic heraldic reference. Vertical stripes correspond to a paly. Horizontal stripes correspond to a barry. Diagonal stripes correspond to a bendy or bendy sinister. Of course stripes are just stripes, you may say. Then what about the chevrons, the papelonny patterns and the whirlpool. Are these just generic, unspecified patterns in your view? Heraldry gives each of these patterns a name that is not anachronistic or otherwise ruled out for any reason I know. Granted the images are not picture perfect - looking at what is in the VMs. Still they are strongly suggestive in a ideological sense, especially in a culture where heraldry was in 'everyday' use. And granted not every last VMs example may be identifiable. How can we project that expectation? But by my own experience I know that you can't find papelonny if you don't know papelonny You can't associate the Fieschi insignia and the red galero if you don't know the relevant history.
Did you know that 'Plain' is a relevant heraldic pattern? 'Plain' is an unadorned field of a single tincture. Solid blue is a valid heraldic insignia. I have found it associated with Berrington of Chester. The identification may not be not exclusive, but in no way does that make it heraldically invalid. Solid silver tincture works as well. The heraldry you find is the heraldry you know. And conversely, not finding it, when you don't know it, doesn't really prove anything.
The VMs is not an instructional text on the topic of heraldry. There are only three pages where heraldry is relevant, and even there it is not a clear and straight forward presentation. The examples used are intentionally obscure and obfuscated. How will anyone, unable to define or describe or even name the traditional papelonny pattern, ever be able to find the papelonny pun???????????????????????? The author, meanwhile, is one who possessed the capacities of a pun creator! Can you see how the pun works?
Let me say again that I do not propose *any* direct connection between heraldic representations and the text. The direct relationship that interests me, is that between the text and the patterned rectangles that are found in those circular bands of text - what Stolfi called "'Start here' markers" in his descriptions on Rene's site. *A pair* of such markers is found on White Aries, another one in Cancer, and other variations are scattered in similar, circular VMs bands.
The direct relationship of heraldry is with the patterned marker - as illustrated in White Aries.
Heraldry will only be germane to the solution if the marked text segments of White Aries are part of that solution. In my estimation, there is every chance it could go either way. But I also have to ask, why does this complex, historically grounded construction sit carefully tucked away in the VMs Zodiac? Can it possibly still look as if everything is accidental and generic *after* the relevant historical and traditional facts are known? That's preposterous. And the only alternative is intentional creation of the subjective identifications and the objective confirmations found in these illustrations.
I don't see why you should expect my pictorial investigations should have anything to do with your linguistic research. And I don't believe that the results of my investigations are in any way diminished because they fail to connect with your work on deconstruction. Yet it seems that is what you are suggesting.
The evidence I have offered is in the multiple confirmations based on object location within the VMs illustrations, the continuous conformation to the pairing paradigm and a fair number of interesting and coordinated identifications involving both armorial and ecclesiastical heraldry and religious traditions that date back to Homer and Deuteronomy, particularly given the very limited amount of data to start with and the potential desire for some level of secrecy. I am mystified to understand what you expect that real evidence should consist of? Facts, dates and individuals involved have all been repeatedly stated in various conversations and several significant contributions have come back as a result. In Linda's posting today, a nebuly line on an armorial insignia, provides another example at an interesting connection to time and place. I trust you've seen it.