A universal language that groups together modifiers would have that charactaristic.
ie:
plant|medicinal|lunar|leo|green
qot ch e o l
Or a system like Don T's.
Of course, this brings in other factors which can't be explained (and of course, the VMS is 150 odd years too early for such a concept)
(09-09-2016, 01:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Thomas,
why should not an inflected agglutinative language be enough to explain this?
From Aeneides Book I (much shorter than the VMS):
qui
quibus
quicquid
quid
quidve
quies
quiescit
quietas
quietem
quietum
quin
quinquaginta
quippe
quirinus
quis
quisquam
quisquis
quo
quocirca
quod
quodcumque
quondam
quoque
quorum
quos
quove
I also suspected Latin for this problem (I have a degree in Latin and another degree in German linguistics, for the record).
The problem with Latin is that there are places in the VMS where 3 or 4 <qo> words appear in a row - which grammatically would make no sense in Latin (imagine "quisquis qui quorum quibus").
Technically you can make a combination of "qu" words may be grammatical, but in 10 years of reading Latin, I've definitively never seen an example of 4 "qu" words in a row. Such strings are common in the VMS but almost unheard of in Latin.
Also, such an explanation does not account for the changes
inside a word. If we hypothetically say that <qot> = "quod", the Voynichese morphology does not correlate to Latin:
qot
qoteo
qoteol
qotcho
qotchol
qotcheo
qotcheol
qotol
(09-09-2016, 01:20 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A universal language that groups together modifiers would have that charactaristic.
ie:
plant|medicinal|lunar|leo|green
qot ch e o l
That also encounters the problem of "What happens when there are 3 or 4 <qo> words in a row?" You would get long lists of:
"Medicinal-Lunar-Leo-Green-Plant Non-medicinal-Taurus-Yellow-Plant Medicinal-Gemini-Red-Plant"
And then, since we've already used 2 dozen letters or clusters just to describe plants (you'd need 12 markers for the astrological signs, at least 7 colors, solar and lunar, etc. etc.) then there would be very few sign/clusters left to make the verbs and grammar that bind them all together.
(09-09-2016, 01:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Thomas,
why should not an inflected agglutinative language be enough to explain this?
I am sorry, it seems my example was misleading and my question was lost.
I don't think that Voynichese can be Latin, but I think that Voynichese can be a morphological rich language (like Latin) with a strong agglutinative component (more than Latin, but in manuscripts spaces are sometimes omitted, with the result of a pseudo-agglutination).
As Emma wrote, the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful.
Explaining sequencies like
qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey
certainly is difficult and I cannot think of anything but some kind of intensification by repetition.
But is
qokeedyqokeedyqokeedyqoteyqokeeyqokeey
easier to explain?
(09-09-2016, 02:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am sorry, it seems my example was misleading and my question was lost.
I don't think that Voynichese can be Latin, but I think that Voynichese can be a morphological rich language (like Latin) with a strong agglutinative component (more than Latin, but in manuscripts spaces are sometimes omitted, with the result of a pseudo-agglutination).
As Emma wrote, the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful.
Explaining sequencies like
qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey
certainly is difficult and I cannot think of anything but some kind of intensification by repetition.
But is
qokeedyqokeedyqokeedyqoteyqokeeyqokeey
easier to explain?
I'm sorry Marco; I missed your original question because I jumped at the word "Latin"
I am actually not sure that an agglutinative language can be the solution - usually words are much longer in agglutinative languages than words in the VMS (just look at the Turkish Wikipedia homepage: "Hristiyanların insan haklarının çiğnendiği konusunda..."). But regardless:
I don't necessarily agree that "the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful." I provided a counter-example in the other thread:
yol ar ar Shaiin seeo Shoesal chetoly qoch qoskeaiin arSheo qochot qosolaiin otchod keesy oeee qochod ...
= Nullo modo dixerunt. Etiam hoc tertium respondete: s...
Key: <y> = N, <ol> = U, <ar> = L, <Sh> or <se> = o, <aiin> = m, <eo> = d, <s> = i, <al> = x, <ch> or <ee> = e, <ot> = r, <qo> = t, <ke> = a, <or> = H, <od> = s
So, in about 15 minutes of effort I can encode a real plaintext (St. Augustine) with contrived spaces, and certain groups (qo) are always in front while others are always in back (aiin)
Therefore two things to keep in mind:
1) If you are searching for a natural language for Voynichese and believe the VMS spaces are true, you are almost certainly limited to agglutinative and polysynthetic languages because of the "morphology" of Voynich words (see the <qot> forms). This eliminates most of the languages in Europe.
2) There are ways to explain the word-initial and word-final clusters with contrived spaces, and at the same time explain the low VMS entropy.
(09-09-2016, 02:43 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't necessarily agree that "the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful." I provided a counter-example in the other thread:
yol ar ar Shaiin seeo Shoesal chetoly qoch qoskeaiin arSheo qochot qosolaiin otchod keesy oeee qochod ...
= Nullo modo dixerunt. Etiam hoc tertium respondete: s...
Key: <y> = N, <ol> = U, <ar> = L, <Sh> or <se> = o, <aiin> = m, <eo> = d, <s> = i, <al> = x, <ch> or <ee> = e, <ot> = r, <qo> = t, <ke> = a, <or> = H, <od> = s
So, in about 15 minutes of effort I can encode a real plaintext (St. Augustine) with contrived spaces, and certain groups (qo) are always in front while others are always in back (aiin)
Thank you Thomas, I think I can follow your example. I see that here you have 9 different suffixes in 16 words. If one splits Latin words at every occurrence of "t", you end up with highly variable endings (since "t" can occur after a number of different sounds). But I understand that this is just an example and that it could be possible to devise a splitting system that generates something more similar to the actual statistics.
(09-09-2016, 02:43 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) If you are searching for a natural language for Voynichese and believe the VMS spaces are true, you are almost certainly limited to agglutinative and polysynthetic languages because of the "morphology" of Voynich words (see the <qot> forms). This eliminates most of the languages in Europe.
I see your point. This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
Contrived spaces aren't going to result in VMS-like text on their own. That's why I suggested possible addition of null characters.
A null or two would cancel out many of the "tells" that would identify text as a contrived-space system.
Plus, nulls don't have to be nulls in every instance. They can be positionally dependent to distinguish them from ones that might have linguistic (or structural) meaning.
In the VMS, the g is at the ends of words far more often than one would expect, even in languages with many words ending in vowels. And o is at the beginnings of words with unusual frequency, as well. If they were nulls or semi-nulls, they could be put there to obscure contrived (or arbitrary) spacing.
Thomas,
What Marco says is correct.
Quote:This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
I cannot give you links to all the persons concerned because I don't know which ones Marco meant - no names mentioned.
I do know that Don Hoffmann has been exploring agglutinative structures, of not exactly 'languages' in the formal sense.
I've also very recently published on other forms of text - technical-instructional - which employ strongly abbreviated forms and can be 'agglutinative' - but again not the formal sense.
We have similar forms in every day life e.g take 2gr NaCl. But similar patterns emerge with any number of comparable technical-instructional texts including ones I've tested out such as numerical-coordinate series, or helmsman's orders, or knitting patterns and so forth. If you wrote Latitude and Longitude without superscript you'd get, say 32o45N 33o24W ..
Given that (imo) the map is derived from a Hellenistic one and much of the imagery also, and on one folio is depicted what I have reasonable grounds to believe is an aid for the cosmographer, the Lat.Long. example isn't necessarily hypothetical, either.
Cheers.
(09-09-2016, 02:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (09-09-2016, 01:15 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Thomas,
why should not an inflected agglutinative language be enough to explain this?
I am sorry, it seems my example was misleading and my question was lost.
I don't think that Voynichese can be Latin, but I think that Voynichese can be a morphological rich language (like Latin) with a strong agglutinative component (more than Latin, but in manuscripts spaces are sometimes omitted, with the result of a pseudo-agglutination).
As Emma wrote, the fact that words have repeating prefixes and suffixes really points to the fact that spaces are meaningful.
Explaining sequencies like
qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey
certainly is difficult and I cannot think of anything but some kind of intensification by repetition.
But is
qokeedyqokeedyqokeedyqoteyqokeeyqokeey
easier to explain?
MarcoP
I have to believe this repetition you point out could indicate the use of incantation like a magic spell. What folio is this listed in?
qokeedy.qokeedy.qokeedy.qotey.qokeey.qokeey
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Word Origin
C14: from Late Latin incantātiō an enchanting, from incantāre to repeatmagic formulas, from Latin, from in- ² + cantāre to sing; see enchant[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]1350-1400; Middle English < Late Latin incantātiōn- (stem of incantātiō),equivalent to incantāt (us) past participle of incantāre to put a spell on,bewitch (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) + -iōn- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font][/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/font]
(09-09-2016, 03:46 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (09-09-2016, 02:43 PM)ThomasCoon Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) If you are searching for a natural language for Voynichese and believe the VMS spaces are true, you are almost certainly limited to agglutinative and polysynthetic languages because of the "morphology" of Voynich words (see the <qot> forms). This eliminates most of the languages in Europe.
I see your point. This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
Interesting, Marco; could you tell me which researchers think this?
(09-09-2016, 08:13 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Contrived spaces aren't going to result in VMS-like text on their own. That's why I suggested possible addition of null characters.
A null or two would cancel out many of the "tells" that would identify text as a contrived-space system.
Plus, nulls don't have to be nulls in every instance. They can be positionally dependent to distinguish them from ones that might have linguistic (or structural) meaning.
In the VMS, the g is at the ends of words far more often than one would expect, even in languages with many words ending in vowels. And o is at the beginnings of words with unusual frequency, as well. If they were nulls or semi-nulls, they could be put there to obscure contrived (or arbitrary) spacing.
That could very well turn out to be correct. I see what you mean, JKP. Thanks for the idea; I'll keep it in mind when I try to break down the text.
(09-09-2016, 08:54 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thomas,
What Marco says is correct.
Quote:This seems to be consistent with where some linguistic research about the ms is going.
I cannot give you links to all the persons concerned because I don't know which ones Marco meant - no names mentioned.
I do know that Don Hoffmann has been exploring agglutinative structures, of not exactly 'languages' in the formal sense.
I've also very recently published on other forms of text - technical-instructional - which employ strongly abbreviated forms and can be 'agglutinative' - but again not the formal sense.
We have similar forms in every day life e.g take 2gr NaCl. But similar patterns emerge with any number of comparable technical-instructional texts including ones I've tested out such as numerical-coordinate series, or helmsman's orders, or knitting patterns and so forth. If you wrote Latitude and Longitude without superscript you'd get, say 32o45N 33o24W ..
Given that (imo) the map is derived from a Hellenistic one and much of the imagery also, and on one folio is depicted what I have reasonable grounds to believe is an aid for the cosmographer, the Lat.Long. example isn't necessarily hypothetical, either.
Thanks Diane - I'll look on your blog for the post. You're right that certain patterns would emerge in texts of the same genre, and that sounds highly interesting about the cosmographer's map
It is necessary to distinguish between "random" position of the gap and "intentional" (for disinformation) selected by some principle, not affiliated with the division of words.
By the example of the symbol “9” (Y). The“9” at the beginning words- 1757 times in the middle of the word - 471 times, at the end of the word - 15263 times. If "random" position gap these numbers should be close.
JKP/ When "deliberate" gap, the "9" is a candidate for "null character" (punctuation mark) in some of the provisions.
"M" is another example. In 96% of cases it is in the end of a word. And about 70% at the end of line. End of the line - it is also a gap.