The Voynich Ninja

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It becomes increasingly clear that the manuscript is most likely to have been made in Italy, as was the opinion of both Nick Pelling and Edith Sherwood before 2008.

Sherwood believed so because she thought then that the manuscript was by Leonard da Vinci; Pelling's opinion was drawn from his own research into an Italian architect nicknamed 'Filarete'.

Codicological evidence for this view has been less often addressed.

Recently, however, Alain Towaide has said that the binding itself (i.e. the style of stitching) is characteristically Italian, an important new insight. (on which point, see the publication by the Villa Mondragone, and a summary review by Rene written for Stephen Bax' website).

In this connection, I have noted again a comment published some time ago on ciphermysteries by Menno Krull Knul, who said he thought that an Italian manuscript in the library of the University of Vermont (Burlington) was 'convincingly like' the botanical section of Beinecke MS 408.

Bald assertions of this sort abound in Voynich studies, and finding the reason and evidence for an opinion is often very difficult.

So I've recently begun to write up a detailed comparison of the two manuscripts.  My conclusions are (for those who don't want to wade through the comparative evidence, reasoning and all that) that the similarities are primarily those of similar practices and materials in use in northern Italy during the fifteenth century.  As example, one page of the Vermont herbal, folded across the middle, differs not at all from the VMS vellum in one dimension and only 2.5mm to either side on the other.

The palette is comparable, though the Vms' is broader.  More telling is that both have had the pictures made before the text was added, and in *some* cases, the text of the Vermont 'Tuscany Herbal' also weaves the text through and around a central image.

However, the length in time between them - as much as four or five generations - suggests that it is the use of paper and membrane supplied by a constant source over that period which explains the dimensions, as well as the possibility that the 'Tuscany' herbal drew upon  the earlier Beinecke manuscript, or upon exemplars in common.  I conclude that the Vms is most likely to have been made c.1427-8 in the Veneto.

I think that, given the earlier ideas about where the manuscript was made (which is not the same thing as where the contained matter was first enunciated), Towaide's comment and Menno Krull's Knul's observation become important.   We may need to switch attention from 'central Europe' to northern Italy in our hunt for the text.

I should appreciate comments on the posts from members here.
Hi Diane,
just a quick note to correct the spelling of the Ciphermysteries commenter you mentioned: his last name is spelled "Knul" not "Krull".
Sorry for off-topic, but I just found out that Menno Knul passed away on 30 December 2014.
(08-05-2016, 07:40 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....  We may need to switch attention from 'central Europe' to northern Italy in our hunt for the text.

I should appreciate comments on the posts from members here....

The data should determine the location of various aspects of the manuscript, not the researcher's "attention". There shouldn't be any need to shift any honest researcher's attention geographically.

If the researcher chooses a particular property of the manuscript and it leads to central Europe, that does not mean the researcher's attention was on central Europe or that the next trail (perhaps in another part of the manuscript) will lead in the same direction.


For example, when I was looking at hundreds of examples of zodiacs and zeroing in on each one in turn, I was not focusing any of my attention on central Europe whatsoever. I don't care where it leads. I particularly enjoy researching Asia and Africa, rather than Europe because it's more interesting and exotic to me but... I was focusing my attention on the zodiacs (not the geography) and the patterns that emerged by how they were depicted. I collected zodiacs worldwide, but the VMS zodiac symbols do not resemble Asian zodiacs in any way, so I was not drawn in that direction by the data. By the time I finished Libra, it was clear that it followed the conventions of western Europe and particularly those of central Europe.



I will say this again... What we call "northern Italy" is not what northern Italy was in the year 1400. Northern Italy was only 60% up the "leg" at that time and it wasn't a country, it was a collection of city-states. The germanic regions, the declining region of the Lombards, and the reach of the Holy Roman Empire was almost down to Rome, included what we now call Slovenia, western Austria and not long before had included Rome and the region around Venice and some of the area which is now eastern Spain and France.

When you are talking about something that was created 600 years ago, you have to qualify what you mean when you say "northern Italy" so that you cast it within the correct political and cultural boundaries of the time. What we call northern Italy, in the 14th and early 15th centuries, was largely germanic. Their political and cultural ties were with those who lived in central Europe more than they were with those who lived in the Italic city-states (with the exception of Salerno, which retained Lombard ties long after the Lombards lost the kingdom of Naples). And by the way, germanic does not mean German. The Germans were a subset of the Germanic peoples.


I'll will also say this once again... Just because something leads to central Europe does not mean the researcher has a central European "theory" or that the researcher's "attention" was on central Europe. The data led there. There is no need to "shift attention from central Europe" if the attention/assumption was not there in the first place and if the researcher is following specific attributes of the manuscript (writing, ink, parchment, drawing style, content, etc.) wherever they may lead. Which is what a researcher should do until a preponderance of evidence (which I don't think we have yet) provides some answers.
Maybe an example will help explain why I think it's so important for researchers to qualify what they mean by northern Italy when discussing Beinecke 408...

When we talk about northern America (the "new world") in 1460, it would be misleading to refer to it as "the western USA" or as "eastern Canada". It gives a wrong political and cultural impression, just as referring to "northern Italy" in c. 1408 to c. 1438 without qualifying it gives a misleading political and cultural impression.


In the early 1400s, "northern Italy" (if collectively referring to the Italian city-states) barely includes Rome (on the west coast) and barely includes Venice on the east coast and everything north of that was part of the Holy Roman Empire.

The Holy Roman Empire, leading up to and including the time of the VMS, was mainly ruled by the Houses of Wittelsbach and Luxembourg, which were germanic.


Calling it part of the southern HRE might be a mouthful, but it would be more historically, politically, and culturally accurate than calling it northern Italy.


People migrate. The USA might be primarily Europeans now, but that was not so in 1460. These kinds of migrations happened all over Europe and Asia as well. The Scandinavians migrated as far as northern Africa. Some of the Greek islands still have pockets of people who are blond and blue-eyed who have been there for centuries. As the Holy Roman Empire shrank, so did the dominions of the germanic people (although Lombardy kept some of its culture and customs for a longer period, on a smaller scale). We have to put our mindset in the 15th-century (and earlier) as much as is possible.
The Vermont herbal seems to have been one of the first that was entirely digitised on the net. Or at least one of those with some similarity to the Voynich MS. I am fairly sure it was discussed on the mailing list before 2000, but I just quickly found this note from Dana Scott from 2002:
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My follow-up to that (linked) refers to an earlier mention. In the archive I find one from 1998, but again it says 'was mentioned before'.

Having seen many herbals, this one does not strike me as the 'most similar'. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of JKP and Marco on that.
The MS itself indicates that it has combined contributions from several books or MSs, and one of them clearly was an alchemical herbal, because several of the herbs are easily recognisable as such. I just point out herb #17 in the right centre of page 9, and herb #65 in the bottom right of page 51. In both cases there is a reference to an 'alio libro'.
There are many more, but they are scattered throughout and not in the usual order.
(Edit: page numbers are from my notes, I hope they are right).
JKP
Quote:I will say this again... What we call "northern Italy" is not what northern Italy was in the year 1400. Northern Italy was only 60% up the "leg" at that time and it wasn't a country, it was a collection of city-states. The germanic regions, the declining region of the Lombards, and the reach of the Holy Roman Empire was almost down to Rome, included what we now call Slovenia, western Austria and not long before had included Rome and the region around Venice and some of the area which is now eastern Spain and France.


It would be nice if you post or refer to a specific map of the region, because i am working for quite while now in lower Germany and Austria and northern Italie. If for any reason we could narrow down the area this makes the search easier, because i am investigating as many cities and villages as possible.
(09-05-2016, 05:57 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Having seen many herbals, this one does not strike me as the 'most similar'. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of JKP and Marco on that.
The MS itself indicates that it has combined contributions from several books or MSs, and one of them clearly was an alchemical herbal, because several of the herbs are easily recognisable as such. I just point out herb #17 in the right centre of page 9, and herb #65 in the bottom right of page 51. In both cases there is a reference to an 'alio libro'.
There are many more, but they are scattered throughout and not in the usual order.
(Edit: page numbers are from my notes, I hope they are right).

Hello Rene,
it would be interesting to systematically analyze herbals in order to rank them on the basis of Voynich-proximity. Anyway, it's difficult to think of a way of doing it and it would be immensely time-consuming, since there are so many herbals and each one illustrates so many plants (I think more than 300 in Vermont ms 2).
I agree that some of the Vermont illustrations compare well with the Voynich manuscript.

Here are some pages I like (not necessarily Voynich related):

Bird leaves / flowers and a view of Florence:
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"Ignored" Italian color annotations ("rossa" red on green leaves):
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A collection of Lunarie:
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A wolf plant (Luparia maggiore, greater wolfplant):
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More color annotations ("picte fogle xelj" leaves painted in [yellow?])
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Two anthropomorphic bulbs - see Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
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A terrible water-lily (at the bottom: "nenufarro"):
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Voynich-like page layout and plant:
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The whole manuscript can be seen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
It was briefly discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in 2014.

PS: a major difference I see is the more detailed and three-dimensional treatment of flowers in the Voynich manuscript. But I don't think I have seen better matching flowers in other manuscripts.
(09-05-2016, 09:50 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP
Quote:I will say this again... What we call "northern Italy" is not what northern Italy was in the year 1400. Northern Italy was only 60% up the "leg" at that time and it wasn't a country, it was a collection of city-states. The germanic regions, the declining region of the Lombards, and the reach of the Holy Roman Empire was almost down to Rome, included what we now call Slovenia, western Austria and not long before had included Rome and the region around Venice and some of the area which is now eastern Spain and France.


It would be nice if you post or refer to a specific map of the region, because i am working for quite while now in lower Germany and Austria and northern Italie. If for any reason we could narrow down the area this makes the search easier, because i am investigating as many cities and villages as possible.

The arrowheads that I have included in the maps I posted on my zodiac blogs are pretty accurate (the tips of the green ones). The buff ones are more approximate. Scholars don't know the exact origin of some of these manuscripts but the green arrows are pretty close. You can refer to those maps. The arrows are superimposed on a map of the Holy Roman Empire as it was at approximately 1400.

(09-05-2016, 05:57 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Vermont herbal seems to have been one of the first that was entirely digitised on the net. Or at least one of those with some similarity to the Voynich MS. I am fairly sure it was discussed on the mailing list before 2000, but I just quickly found this note from Dana Scott from 2002:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
My follow-up to that (linked) refers to an earlier mention. In the archive I find one from 1998, but again it says 'was mentioned before'.

Having seen many herbals, this one does not strike me as the 'most similar'. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of JKP and Marco on that.
The MS itself indicates that it has combined contributions from several books or MSs, and one of them clearly was an alchemical herbal, because several of the herbs are easily recognisable as such. I just point out herb #17 in the right centre of page 9, and herb #65 in the bottom right of page 51. In both cases there is a reference to an 'alio libro'.
There are many more, but they are scattered throughout and not in the usual order.
(Edit: page numbers are from my notes, I hope they are right).

I have some pressing deadlines, but if I can carve out a block of time, I'll respond to this as I have a lot of data on the herbals and some opinions about similarity. It's an interesting topic.
@JKP: thanks JKP, we i know: discussed this by e-mail before a while ago, but what i mean is an old map during years 1400
I made a (current) google map with the interesting stuff and on it and it would be interesting to lay that old map over it.

@ Marco: Also i would like to refer to this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
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