Marco, I've identified many of the plants in the Vermont Italian MS 2 but... I cannot get to my data and export it in some kind of form that can be listed or uploaded to the Web until Wednesday at the soonest. I have my hands full right now.
For example, you have
Vermont Italian folio 4 "Dictamo" tentatively identified as
Origanum dictamnus, but I'm quite certain the drawing is not
Origanum, it's
Dictamnus albus/Dcitamnus fraxinella (which has odd-pinnate leaves and thick finger roots that are very light colored, almost white), so I think perhaps I can help with the IDs, I just can't do it today or tomorrow (in fact, maybe not until the weekend).
(03-04-2017, 03:36 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco, I've identified many of the plants in the Vermont Italian MS 2 but... I cannot get to my data and export it in some kind of form that can be listed or uploaded to the Web until Wednesday at the soonest. I have my hands full right now.
For example, you have Vermont Italian folio 4 "Dictamo" tentatively identified as Origanum dictamnus, but I'm quite certain the drawing is not Origanum, it's Dictamnus albus/Dcitamnus fraxinella (which has odd-pinnate leaves and thick finger roots that are very light colored, almost white), so I think perhaps I can help with the IDs, I just can't do it today or tomorrow (in fact, maybe not until the weekend).
Thank you, JKP. I hope you will find the time to share your notes! I would be greatly interested in the comparison. Of course, there is no hurry
You are certainly right about Dictamnus Albus, thank you for this correction! A quick google search provided a nice parallel with horned dragon in the Trento Herbal ms 1591. Here the plant is labeled ditamo biancho (albus=white in Latin, bianco=white in Italian).
Very nice parallel for the dragon.
I'll dig up as much as I can during the week, but any major info will have to wait for the weekend.
Rene Zandbergen has kindly shared with me some notes about the ms. In particular, he has added more illustrations derived from the Alchemical Herbal and pointed out a few parallels with the Tractatus de Herbis tradition: many thanks to Rene! I have added the details to the You are not allowed to view links.
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Here are a few images compared with You are not allowed to view links.
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It's tax week, so I've been crazy busy, Marco, but here are some quick notes on identification...
Page 1 ...the one you have labeled as cabbage is probably Crambe maritima (kale, which is the leaf). Note the dots on the stem. That's what it looks like as the lower leaves are pruned off to use them as food, and the leaves and flowers are correct.
Page 3 top ... It's probably minionette (Cardamine resedifolia). It's drawn accurately (including the root) and the seeds look exactly like it is drawn—the yellow pods split open but the seeds are visible as black dots for a while before they fall to the ground. The size of the leaf is a bit exaggerated, but it's the correct shape. Notice that it's "branca leonina" not "branca leona/leonis". In other words, not lion's paw but cat's paw, which also would fit with minionette (I've noticed some of the old texts assume branca leonina is the same as lion's paw but from what I've seen, they are mistaken, herbals that include both show a different plant for lion's paw).
Page 5 ... This is not necessarily Viola. Most Viola species with round leaves are New World plants. Notice also the flowers do not look like Viola, the shape is completely different and they are very close to the ground. In Germany and parts of northern Italy in the 15th century, many different plants with small violet-colored flowers were called viola, so it's important to check the way the plant is drawn even if they are labeled 'viola".
I have much more information, but I have to run now, sorry, duty calls.
Thank you, JKP! I will certainly consider your suggestions! Ideas for the identification of the plants marked with ??? would be particularly welcome
At the moment I only have time to comment on this passage:
(13-04-2017, 04:56 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Page 3 top ... Notice that it's "branca leonina" not "branca leona/leonis". In other words, not lion's paw but cat's paw,
In "branca leonina", the suffix -ina is not a diminutive, but has the function of transforming a noun into an adjective.
Other examples:
"branca cervina" (deer's foot, from "cervo")
"aglio ursino" (bear's garlic, from "urso" i.e. "orso")
"pan porcino" (swine's bread, from "porco")
If I understand correctly, the adjective "leonine" with the same meaning exists in English too.
In other words, "branca leonina" is perfectly equivalent to "branca leonis". By the way, "cat" in Italian is "gatto". I don't think I have ever seen "leonino" used as a noun and it certainly cannot mean "cat".
Maybe I went too far in trying to interpret it (sorry, I was in a hurry and wasn't thinking clearly) but it doesn't match the various plants that are usually called lion's foot/lion's paw and it is a very good (quite accurate) match for minionette which goes under a variety of names and which has leaves that are somewhat pinnate (like dent de lion but rounder, like a paw), so "lion-like foot" would not be out of place for minionette.
I still feel however, that those authors from the 16th and 17th centuries who have assumed that it's the same as lion's foot are mistaken. This plant doesn't match most of the plants that go by lion's foot, such as:
Alchemilla vulgaris, which is sometimes called lion's foot or bear's foot, but it looks quite different and doesn't have these distinctive yellow pods with black dots.
Prenanthes, which is rattlesnake root or lion's foot, but not a good match.
Leontopodium which includes the flower known as Edelweiss and doesn't look at all like the drawing.
A distant possibility is Leontice leontopetalum (Turkish lion's foot) the leaves are somewhat similar, but the roots and seedheads are wrong.
(13-04-2017, 10:26 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... many thanks to Rene! I have added the details to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The link to the manuscript ( TR F Herbal ) has changed.
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(19-08-2022, 07:56 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The link to the manuscript ( TR F Herbal ) has changed.
How good that reader is, flipping the pages naturally. Most of these readers are just evil.