(01-11-2025, 02:41 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (01-11-2025, 12:21 AM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- It You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., "Follies of Science in the Court of Rudolf II", which was Voynich's favorite book
Narrowly sticking to my point, this doesn't answer questions about the patterns in the (possibly non-) cipher, which is still a pretty substantial mystery
As for the patterns detected in the writing of the Voynich, by many and varied tests, yes some have detected "language-like" patterns. But two things about that: If there is meaning in the Voynich, it is not a sign of genuine, as most forgeries actually have meaning... think of the Protocals of the Elders of Zion, the Howard Hughes will, the Oath of a Freeman, the Diary of Hitler... and on and on. Yet I've seen several people in lectures, and in writing, incorrectly equating meaning=genuine in the Voynich. Why I don't know, it really doesn't follow. But I think the major incentives to look for meaning in Voynichese are to 1) help solving it, but more importantly, 2) because while most forgeries have meaning, no meaning would be a very strong indicator of forgery. I mean, I know of no genuine documents or books written with no meaning, unless for purely artistic purposes. Well it could be an old fake, to fool others, too. But most likely, gibberish=forgery.
The second point to that is that there is some evidence that gibberish... random human output... will reflect the language structure of the producer. Helene Smith and her "Martian speak" are a good example of this. There were others.
(01-11-2025, 02:41 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... even if I take Bolton as a smoking gun of a forgery. (You probably correctly detect I don't; like a lot of "looks like" theories, I don't see correspondences that are particularly discriminating, and I could just as soon take the looser parallels I do see as suggestive it was the sort of thing Rudolf II would have been interested in purchasing.)
Well the thing is, it is not a direct equation. A person who was presented with the Voynich for the first time, and had not analyzed any of the content with any research, and then reading Bolton, might say "I don't get it". But it is when one looks at all the research into the Voynich and its supposed backstory, and the resulting suggestions of what all that means, that the comparisons come into sharp focus. This is far too large a subject for a thread comment, but in Follies are mentioned John Dee and Edward Kelley, Scrying, glossolalia, Francis Bacon and the New Atlantis, New World plants, Jewish traditions and persons, Tycho Brahe and Kepler, medicines and apothecary, animals of the New World, alchemy, herbals and botany, the Zodiac, astronomy and astrology, medicine and biology... these off the top of my head, there are many more. Also, the magic wheel of Dee, and his shewstone are illustrated in the book... very similar to the You are not allowed to view links.
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But we also have a great coincidence here, as I wrote in You are not allowed to view links.
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"And both Hořčický’s figure largely in “Follies”, for their skills as a botanist and pharmacist. As an example, on page 150, “Jacob’s knowledge of botany was of great assistance to Christian Horcicky in the collection and identification of medicinal plants, both indigenous and exotic…”"
Anyway, there is still more to that story, other coincidental (or not) connections between Bolton, Wilfrid and the Voynich, but that is too long already.
(01-11-2025, 02:41 AM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also think in this telling Voynich made a real mess of things in ways that made his ultimate goal of cashing in on a lost Bacon manuscript harder for himself. I'm not completely unsellable on the conclusion it's a forgery, but one reason I have remained skeptical is that it requires me to believe that Voynich vacillated between a very skilled forgery and a very incompetent scam, and I think the neatest way to resolve that is to instead posit he was struggling with the same ineffable text the rest of us are. The former certainly isn't impossible, but proponents of your theory tend to underestimate how much they are relying on Voynich to have been exactly as brilliant or foolish as each line of evidence requires, and it nags at me.
I agree, real or fake, Wilfrid really did make a mess of things, and pretty much made it very hard to sell the work. Bacon was a bad choice. But as for this, "... it requires me to believe that Voynich vacillated between a very skilled forgery and a very incompetent scam".
I respect your opinion on the "skilled" part, but I never felt that way about it. I think it is actually a very poor forgery, clumsy and unskilled. The idea that skill was involved... and I have discussed this with many people, maybe the thought process for you is the same... that "If a forgery is must be a skilled product, because it fooled so many". And not really skilled in the sense of an able artist?
Anyway, I think it is a bad forgery, that is how I see it... and the reasons it has fooled people so well, for so long, are varied. A few, off the top of my head for now... and it is getting late, and I am tired! But I think it continues to fool (if it is fooling, that is, and not genuine) because:
- The original, 1910's and 1920's assessments, and the word of Voynich, which, at the time of discovery had weight. Today, we need much more, but we carry the baggage of the weight of those original assessments, when if we were presented with the work today for the first time, we would laugh at it as a bad and obvious fake. That is, we tend to see it first through the eyes of generations that told us it was real, and a great mystery, and not really with fresh eyes, as we should.
- People are just in love with it, and feel that it would lose its appeal to them if it turned out to be a fake. They want it to be real. This is why I often get such a visceral, emotional response to my ideas, I think, when other ideas, no matter how wild, get a grin and a yawn. I've been blocked on facebook, lied about, banned from speaking, threatened with a beating, insulted... and censored (!!!). Not complaining really (well a bit, I'm not a robot), but I think the idea of forgery is very offensive to many. I actually know one researcher who came to believe I was correct, and they became very upset because of it, no longer liked the Voynich, and withdrew from the field entirely.
- Some wrongly attach their personal and professional reputations to a Genuine verdict, and think that they would lose that if they were wrong. Then they think it will affect their "real life" reputation, that they will be judged for misjudging it. I have real reason to believe this is the case in some instances, but that is all I will say about that. Me, I really don't care what it is... genuine, old, fake, new, made by a crazy person, a drug addict, a genius doctor in 1420. I don't care, I just want to know the answer. Maybe because I have the freedom of no reputation to begin with! As Janice Joplin famously pointed out... "Freedom is just another word for 'nothing left to lose'.
- People don't want to lose their "seat at the table". While I've been invited to be interviewed in half a dozen documentaries, spanning two of my previous theories, this sort of attention dried up as I became associated with my forgery theory. I had lectured at several events until my newer ideas halted that trend, too. That's understandable to some extent, but the the point is, genuine sells, forgery does not. People are drawn to the ancient mystery aspect; and repelled by the cheap modern fake one. It would be naive to deny that for many, they will tend to want to be accepted into the popular cliches, and will unknowingly then tend to eschew those tenets that the group disdains. Obviously this does not apply to most people... but I've seen it, and it is definitely a factor for some. So this effect also tends to work against free discussion of forgery, for if people can't hear a talk about it they won't even know of it.
- Once projected as genuine and old, the type of testing and investigation that might counter that vision tends to not be done. Why test for forgery, if you "know" it is real? Yet there are many tests and investigations that could still be done, in that direction, but nobody would ever do them. So genuine becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in that way. And even existing test results are "processed" in a genuine direction, because they "know" it is real.
So in answer to your point, yes I agree Voynich made a mess his presentation of it, but that I feel it was both an incompetent forgery and an incompetent scam, in a very gullible age. And we inherited that scenario, and have trouble breaking free of it. But to that point, and my bullet list, above... a great quote by the authors of "Faking MesoAmerica", which I think is hugely appropriate to the Voynich field, and a powerful driving force to preserving its desired image of integrity, even at the cost of science and open discussion:
Quote:"Unfortunately, it is not uncommon to find professionals--- art historians, museum curators, and even well-known archaeologists--- championing these fake works. Some of these erstwhile defenders suffer from the "missing link of history" syndrome, in which the most glaring errors of a forgery are dismissed in the desire to see a fraudulent work as a legitimate copy of some now-lost, previously unknown, ancient manuscript. The discovery of said manuscript--- or at least its ever so faithful copy--- is guaranteed to plug major holes in scholarship as well as rocket its discoverer to fame, fortune, and guest appearances on the Today Show--- or even better, invitations to weekends at well-heeled collectors' country estates. Those suffering from the "missing link" syndrome are perhaps the most dangerous because their misplaced enthusiasm, coupled with their professional reputations, presents the greatest opportunities for the pollution of science to arise."- Nancy L. Kelker & Karen O. Bruhns, "Faking Mesoamerica"